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In this episode of That Change Show, Jason sits down with Don Gray for a deep dive into the realities of change management—beyond frameworks, buzzwords, and rigid processes. They explore why change is messy, how emotions and values shape resistance, and why organizations often focus on the wrong levers when trying to transform.

Drawing from personal experiences, the Satir Change Model, and insights from complex systems thinking, Jason and Don challenge the traditional right-hand-side approach to change (processes & tools) and emphasize the often-overlooked left-hand-side (culture, strategy, and human dynamics).

Along the way, they revisit stories from the Aye Conference, Agile 2012, and Problem Solving Leadership (PSL) workshops, discussing how adaptive thinking, small shifts, and informal change agents can lead to meaningful transformation.

What You’ll Learn:

✅ Why organizations resist change—and why that’s normal
✅ The butterfly effect of small shifts in complex systems
✅ How patterns form, evolve, and disrupt change efforts
✅ The power of timing, emotions, and informal change agents
✅ Why solving problems for people actually makes things worse

🎧 Listen now to rethink how you approach change!

Watch on Youtube

Show Notes and Links

REITH LECTURES 1970: Change and Industrial Society: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/radio4/transcripts/1970_reith2.pdf

Don's contact information

website: donaldegray.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldegray/
Mastodon: @donaldegray@hachyderm.io

Congruent Change information

website: congruentchange.com
LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/congruent-change/
Mastodon: @congruentchange@sw-development-is.social

Don's Change Mind Map: https://www.congruentchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Change.pdf

Problem-solving Leadership information

web url: https://www.congruentchange.com/problem-solving-leadership/
registration request at the bottom

details for the March workshop ...
When: March 20 - April 4, 2025
Where: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Fee: $2995

Jerry Weinberg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Weinberg

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Join us for an enlightening conversation as esteemed facilitator Donna Jones ( https://www.dawnajones.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dawnahjones/) guides us through the complexities of systems thinking in organizational contexts. With a rich backdrop of experience and a reflective nod to our meeting in Estonia 12 years ago, Donna offers profound insights into how organizational systems can influence behavior. We discuss the necessity of adaptability over rigid absolutes and explore how stepping back, much like the fluid movements of sandpipers, can help leaders reassess strategies to foster healthy and responsive systems.

We also tackle the often-illusory world of "change theater" in organizations, where superficial transformations hide deeper issues. Using real-life examples, we illuminate the critical role of sensing and recognizing underlying signals to promote genuine change rather than mere performance. By identifying incongruencies and trust issues, change agents can safely navigate organizational dynamics, leading to meaningful transformation. Our discussion underscores the importance of understanding deep-seated organizational patterns to foster authentic progress.

Finally, we delve into the intricacies of leadership communication, offering practical techniques for conducting difficult conversations with leaders. From changing the discussion venue to crafting engagement agreements that set clear expectations, we explore ways to foster open and honest interactions. The episode concludes by highlighting the potential of blending diverse generational thinking styles to create vibrant, adaptable workplaces. Embracing agile approaches and non-linear thinkers, we encourage organizations to cultivate cultures that value curiosity and adaptability, ensuring a dynamic and inclusive environment for all.

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Prefer the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAiMBgSByBQ

Can you transform the chaos of change into an opportunity for growth? Join me, Jason Little, as we tackle the evolving landscape of change management with innovative strategies. Our latest episode promises a fresh perspective, moving beyond the traditional and embracing a sensemaking approach that balances both exploration and action. Discover how to leverage the "last responsible moment" to make crucial decisions and the power of running experiments to foster learning. We shed light on how AI tools can streamline processes and enhance engagement, ensuring that your change initiatives are not only visible but highly effective.

Explore the art of building trust and co-creation in organizational change, with stories of successful transformations that prioritize meaningful dialogue over mere communication. Uncover the evolving role of change managers, akin to full-stack developers, who engage leaders in co-creation rather than imposing preset strategies. We'll navigate the complexities of structural and strategic changes, highlighting the five levers of organizational change. Wrapping up with a creative twist, discover how Lego Serious Play isn't just child's play but an impactful tool for tackling complex problems, fostering exploration, and driving meaningful change. Join us as we transform the way change is managed, one innovative approach at a time.

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube