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In this episode of That Change Show, Jason sits down with Don Gray for a deep dive into the realities of change management—beyond frameworks, buzzwords, and rigid processes. They explore why change is messy, how emotions and values shape resistance, and why organizations often focus on the wrong levers when trying to transform.

Drawing from personal experiences, the Satir Change Model, and insights from complex systems thinking, Jason and Don challenge the traditional right-hand-side approach to change (processes & tools) and emphasize the often-overlooked left-hand-side (culture, strategy, and human dynamics).

Along the way, they revisit stories from the Aye Conference, Agile 2012, and Problem Solving Leadership (PSL) workshops, discussing how adaptive thinking, small shifts, and informal change agents can lead to meaningful transformation.

What You’ll Learn:

✅ Why organizations resist change—and why that’s normal
✅ The butterfly effect of small shifts in complex systems
✅ How patterns form, evolve, and disrupt change efforts
✅ The power of timing, emotions, and informal change agents
✅ Why solving problems for people actually makes things worse

🎧 Listen now to rethink how you approach change!

Watch on Youtube

Show Notes and Links

REITH LECTURES 1970: Change and Industrial Society: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/radio4/transcripts/1970_reith2.pdf

Don's contact information

website: donaldegray.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldegray/
Mastodon: @donaldegray@hachyderm.io

Congruent Change information

website: congruentchange.com
LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/congruent-change/
Mastodon: @congruentchange@sw-development-is.social

Don's Change Mind Map: https://www.congruentchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Change.pdf

Problem-solving Leadership information

web url: https://www.congruentchange.com/problem-solving-leadership/
registration request at the bottom

details for the March workshop ...
When: March 20 - April 4, 2025
Where: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Fee: $2995

Jerry Weinberg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Weinberg

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube