Government hearings. Whistleblowers. UFO disclosure. Alien claims. Christians calling everything demonic.

But what if the real answer is far more complicated?

Dr. Jonathan Kendall joins Brandon to explore the growing evidence surrounding UFOs and UAPs while challenging the simplistic explanations often offered from every side of the debate.

Together they discuss government evidence, consciousness, high strangeness, extradimensional realities, ancient encounters, quantum physics, biblical worldview, and why the phenomenon may force us to rethink how we understand reality itself.

Rather than choosing between "aliens" or "demons," this conversation asks whether we've been asking the wrong questions all along.

Amazon - New Book

https://x.com/JKendallMD
https://jonathankendallmd.com/

Timestamps:
00:28 Introduction and welcome back Dr. Jonathan Kendall

02:41 Jonathan's lifelong interest in UFOs and the paranormal

03:56 His grandfather's mysterious West Virginia UFO encounter

05:27 Has Jonathan ever had a UFO experience himself?

07:20 What convinced him UFOs are a real phenomenon?

09:55 Project Blue Book and the overwhelming evidence

13:31 The strongest evidence for UAPs today

15:37 Government secrecy, disclosure, and finding the truth

17:08 Are we actually moving toward disclosure?

19:14 Extraterrestrial vs. extradimensional vs. spiritual explanations

21:02 Beyond Cartesian dualism: a new way of understanding reality

23:08 The case for the extraterrestrial hypothesis

25:04 Why Jonathan ultimately leans toward the extradimensional view

27:20 Separating genuine encounters from misidentifications

29:28 Super Psi, consciousness, and paranormal experiences

31:49 Why reality isn't simply "either/or"

32:47 Are aliens really demons?

34:37 Logic, conspiracies, and the danger of flattening reality

36:58 Jacques Vallée, Diana Pasulka, and Christian perspectives

39:14 What Jonathan hopes readers take away from his book

40:41 Jinn, fairies, folklore, and ancient parallels

44:00 Biblical examples of the physical and spiritual overlapping

45:55 Time travel, quantum physics, and the transfiguration

47:18 Where to connect with Jonathan and his work

48:04 Thoughts on the new disclosure movie

49:11 "We need to get away from the idea that UFOs are demons."

49:56 Jonathan's final encouragement to Christians

Forgiveness is one of the most necessary parts of the Christian life, but it is also one of the most misunderstood. In this episode, Brandon and Sandy sit down with Dr. Everett Worthington to talk about what forgiveness actually is, what it is not, and why reconciliation is something different altogether. Dr. Worthington shares the tragic story of his mother’s murder and how that moment forced him to live out the very forgiveness he had spent years studying and teaching. The conversation explores decisional forgiveness, emotional forgiveness, rumination, resentment, justice, boundaries, and what happens inside us when unforgiveness takes root. Dr. Worthington also walks through his REACH model and offers practical help for those who feel stuck in pain, anger, or grief. This is a powerful, honest, and hope-filled conversation for anyone wrestling with what it means to forgive without pretending the wound never happened.

Ev's Book https://a.co/d/01UMgKXo
Ev's Website -https://www.evworthington-forgiveness.com/

Timestamps

00:08 Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing

00:28 Welcome to the Unrefined Podcast

00:51 Introducing Dr. Everett Worthington and the topic of forgiveness

03:13 Dr. Worthington’s early work studying forgiveness

05:36 The murder of Dr. Worthington’s mother

07:41 Wrestling with anger after tragedy

10:06 Realizing he had to face forgiveness personally

12:29 Forgiveness does not erase justice

14:56 Defining forgiveness through stress and coping

17:12 Understanding the injustice gap

19:37 Different biblical ways to respond to injustice

21:57 Decisional forgiveness and emotional forgiveness

24:17 Restraint, the brain, and choosing not to retaliate

26:41 The difference between forgiveness and reconciliation

29:00 Boundaries, toxic relationships, and reconciliation

30:22 What it means to love your enemy

32:50 The REACH model of forgiveness

35:12 Giving the gift of forgiveness

37:32 When hurt comes back after forgiving

39:51 Anger, fear, and the body’s protective response

42:14 Rumination and unforgiveness

44:35 Vengeance, grudge-holding, and gender differences

47:02 Decisional forgiveness, emotional forgiveness, and well-being

49:07 Matthew 6 and “forgive to be forgiven”

51:25 Forgiveness, salvation, and God’s judgment

53:51 A word for listeners carrying deep wounds

55:36 Practicing forgiveness over time

After four years, hundreds of conversations, strange rabbit trails, incredible guests, Bigfoot, Laurel Canyon, spiritual warfare, liminal spaces, theology, heart transformation—and more than a few things we still can’t explain—the Unrefined Podcast is signing off.

For this final episode, Brandon is joined by Lindsy and Sandy to look back at how a couple of weird conversations became a podcast, how “Stairs in the Woods” helped launch the whole thing, and how years of exploring the seen and unseen changed the way they see the world, faith, people, and even themselves.

They revisit some favorite episodes and guests, remember what happened behind the scenes, talk about the danger of going too far down the rabbit hole, and reflect on one of the biggest lessons Unrefined taught them: listen to people’s stories, hold some opinions loosely, leave room for mystery, and stay anchored to Jesus.

But this isn’t simply about looking backward. Somewhere along the way, the conversation became a journey. The podcast may be ending, but “Unrefined” was never really about a podcast—or even the strange subjects they explored. It was about imperfect people willing to ask questions, grow, change their minds, and discover what all this information actually means for the way we live.

So for now, we conclude our broadcast day.

Good night, everybody.

https://unrefined.life

00:01:41 – We Now Conclude Our Broadcast Day
00:03:50 – How Did Unrefined Even Get Started?
00:05:53 – Stairs in the Woods: Where It All Began
00:08:35 – When the Weirdness Started Getting Real
00:10:49 – How the Podcast Changed the Way We See the World
00:12:02 – Bigfoot, Cryptids & Opening Up to Possibility
00:13:40 – A Bigger, More Complex Spiritual Realm
00:15:32 – When the Supernatural Becomes Personal
00:16:54 – Strong Opinions Held Loosely
00:20:05 – Exploring Without Sensationalizing
00:21:15 – The Episode That Almost Got Us Kicked Off YouTube
00:22:22 – Where the Old Episodes Will Live
00:23:46 – What Do We Do With Everything We Learned?
00:24:38 – Listen to People’s Stories Before Judging Them
00:27:50 – Nancy, Laurel Canyon & the Power of Telling Your Story
00:28:56 – Looking Back at the Laurel Canyon Rabbit Hole
00:30:25 – Behind the Scenes: The Episodes You Never Heard
00:31:43 – Sandy, Editing & Four Years Behind the Curtain
00:32:43 – Lindsy Confesses He’s Been AI the Whole Time
00:34:19 – Coast to Coast & Other Early Influences
00:35:00 – From Cryptids to Discipleship: Why Unrefined Was Different
00:36:33 – The People and Friendships That Made It Worth It
00:37:03 – When the Podcast Started Losing Its Shine
00:38:55 – The Danger of Going Too Far Down the Rabbit Hole
00:39:55 – What “Unrefined” Has Really Meant All Along
00:41:20 – From a Conversation to a Journey
00:42:14 – What Happens Next for Unrefined?
00:43:00 – The End of the Unrefined Podcast

What if your heart was designed to experience God—not just know about Him?
Brandon welcomes certified Heart Physics coach Jennifer Johnson back to Unrefined for a practical conversation about moving from fear to faith and from simply knowing biblical truth intellectually to actually believing and living from it in the heart. Jennifer shares personal stories involving fear, relationships, forgiveness, family struggles, healing, and the hidden beliefs that can quietly shape our reactions and circumstances. Together they explore how repeated thoughts and emotions persuade the heart, why circumstances often expose what we genuinely believe, and how renewing the mind becomes an intentional process of gathering new evidence around the truth of God’s Word. They also unpack Dr. Jim Richards’ Heart Physics approach, including Essential Heart Physics, relaxation, meditation, the “secret place,” community, and learning to encounter God at the heart level. The central challenge is simple but profound: we are always persuading our hearts of something—so what are we persuading them to believe?

Monday Meditation with Jennifer on zoom (free) @11am CST Monday's

Replays on Youtube

https://www.jjohnsoncoach.com/

Essential Heart Physics-Enroll in 1 month program- $29

Timestamps

00:00:04 – How Do You Persuade Your Heart?
00:00:41 – Welcome Back Jennifer Johnson
00:02:00 – From Fear to Faith
00:05:20 – Building an Illusion & Gathering Evidence
00:07:40 – How Thoughts Become Heart Beliefs
00:10:03 – Forgiveness: Head Knowledge vs. Heart Knowledge
00:12:21 – Sending Away the Pain
00:14:42 – When “Fear Not” Becomes Real
00:17:03 – Trusting God With Your Children
00:19:15 – When God Exposes What the Heart Really Believes
00:21:38 – Getting Real With God Without Shame
00:24:05 – Brandon’s Journey Out of Religiosity
00:26:17 – What Does It Mean to Persuade Your Heart?
00:28:44 – How One Thought Becomes a Train of Thoughts
00:31:07 – Religious Worrying & Collecting Evidence Against God
00:33:10 – Mental Assent vs. Genuine Heart Belief
00:35:24 – Healing, Pain & “Help My Unbelief”
00:37:49 – Renewing the Mind Thought by Thought
00:40:06 – Transformation Takes Effort
00:42:30 – Secondary Gain & Hidden Heart Beliefs
00:44:53 – You’re Always Persuading Your Heart
00:47:16 – When Your First Reaction Begins to Change
00:48:00 – What Is Heart Physics?
00:49:26 – Essential Heart Physics & Heart Work
00:51:44 – Why Essential Heart Physics Comes First
00:54:03 – The Secret Place & Experiencing God
00:56:06 – Jennifer’s Final Challenge & Prayer

Brandon and Lindsy invite Britton Smith, host of Pastor to Pioneer to share his journey from traditional church leadership into simple church and disciple-making movements—and the deeper transformation he discovered along the way. Britton opens up about the personal cost of leaving the institutional model, the impact on his marriage and identity, and the realization that simply changing church structures and discipleship tools doesn’t necessarily change the heart. The conversation explores performance-based Christianity, relational discipleship, dependence on the Holy Spirit, and the difference between doing the right things and actually becoming more like Jesus. Britton also shares a powerful supernatural encounter from his years in ministry and explains why true pioneering begins with what God is doing within us.to share his journey from traditional church leadership into simple church and disciple-making movements—and the deeper transformation he discovered along the way. Britton opens up about the personal cost of leaving the institutional model, the impact on his marriage and identity, and the realization that simply changing church structures and discipleship tools doesn’t necessarily change the heart. The conversation explores performance-based Christianity, relational discipleship, dependence on the Holy Spirit, and the difference between doing the right things and actually becoming more like Jesus. Britton also shares a powerful supernatural encounter from his years in ministry and explains why true pioneering begins with what God is doing within us.

https://pastortopioneer.com/

Timestamps

00:02:50 – Britton’s Journey
00:05:19 – Discovering the Supernatural
00:07:40 – An Unexpected Deliverance Encounter
00:09:43 – Are We Actually Making Disciples?
00:11:13 – Experimenting With House Church
00:13:37 – Discovering DMM & a Different Approach
00:15:55 – Why Changing the Model Wasn’t Enough
00:18:20 – COVID Exposes Dependency in the Church
00:20:47 – Church Split & Losing 90% of the Congregation
00:22:47 – Learning to Be the Church Without the Leaders
00:24:59 – Beyond Changing Models & Methods
00:27:26 – Marriage, Ministry & Facing His Own Brokenness
00:29:30 – When Ministry Relationships Become Transactional
00:31:54 – Realizing You Can’t Change People
00:34:16 – DMM Tools Without Heart Transformation
00:36:40 – Relational vs. Programmed Disciple Making
00:38:50 – Following Jesus Without Forcing the Outcome
00:41:11 – Are We Making Disciples or Gospel Spreaders?
00:43:30 – How Does Real Spiritual Maturity Happen?
00:45:50 – Obedience as Fruit, Not the Mechanism
00:48:09 – Identity After Leaving the Church System
00:50:12 – The Idol of Impact
00:52:35 – The Story Behind Pastor to Pioneer
00:55:01 – Helping Others Navigate the Transition
00:57:29 – The Internal Journey of a Pioneer
00:59:51 – The Wilderness Between Pastor and Pioneer
01:02:13 – A Powerful Lesson About God’s Love
01:04:17 – Britton’s Wildest Supernatural Encounter
01:06:39 – The Power Is in Jesus’ Name, Not Your Volume
01:09:01 – An Angel With a Flaming Sword
01:11:26 – Bringing Heart Transformation Into Discipleship
01:13:48 – You Can’t Give What You Don’t Have

What happens when following Jesus becomes more about maintaining the institution than actually being the body of Christ? Brandon and Lindsy sit down with returning guest Jonathan Brenneman for a provocative conversation about church, authority, leadership, supernatural ministry, and the difference between spectator Christianity and active discipleship. Drawing from his years of missionary work in Brazil, Jonathan shares stories of healings, deliverance, evangelism, and encounters with the Holy Spirit that often happen far outside traditional church services—in homes, neighborhoods, recovery houses, restaurants, barbecues, and everyday life.

Together they challenge hierarchical models of church leadership and explore what the New Testament actually portrays when believers gather: shared meals, dialogue, spiritual gifts, mutual edification, and the participation of the whole body. The conversation moves into tithing, institutional structures, servant leadership, the priesthood of all believers, women in ministry, house churches, spiritual authority, and the dangers of allowing tradition or position to become more authoritative than Scripture. Ultimately, Jonathan calls believers not simply to leave something behind, but to recover a participatory Christianity where every believer is equipped to follow Jesus, serve others, speak the Word, and carry the presence and power of God into ordinary life.

Website/blog: GoToHeavenNow.com

Email: Jonathan@GoToHeavenNow.com

Timestamps

00:00:28 – Welcome Back Jonathan Brenneman
00:02:27 – From Missions to Rethinking Church
00:04:55 – Healing, Miracles & Life Outside the Program
00:07:20 – Tithing, Grace & Leaving Institutional Expectations
00:09:41 – Ministry in the Streets of Brazil
00:12:00 – Manipulation, Money & the Spirit of Religion
00:14:22 – When Church Consumes the Mission
00:16:38 – Moving from Spectator to Participant
00:18:59 – The 59 “One Another” Commands
00:21:25 – Spiritual Gifts Around the Table
00:23:51 – Why Every Member Matters
00:26:10 – Rethinking Leadership & Authority
00:28:31 – Servant Leadership and Decentralized Church
00:33:16 – Does Authority Come from Position?
00:35:38 – Miracles Outside the Church Walls
00:37:57 – Is Revival Simply Normal Christianity?
00:40:16 – Receiving Jesus Through His Body
00:42:42 – Does Restricting Participation Quench the Spirit?
00:45:04 – Love, Miracles & Everyday Evangelism
00:47:25 – Evangelism at Carnival
00:49:43 – From Miracles to Making Disciples
00:52:07 – Worship, Friendship & Christian Community
00:54:29 – House Church, Heresy & Hierarchical Control
00:58:47 – Why Participation Helps Test Teaching
01:00:32 – Leaving Without Becoming Bitter
01:02:47 – Finding Biblical Fellowship
01:05:06 – Women and the Priesthood of All Believers
01:09:46 – Do Women Have a Priestly Duty to Speak?
01:11:58 – Women, Authority & Difficult New Testament Passages
01:14:21 – Phoebe, Junia & Women in Leadership
01:16:39 – Why Jesus Appeared First to Women
01:19:01 – Church History vs. the Teaching of Jesus
01:21:26 – Tradition, Scripture & Institutional Drift
01:23:49 – Religion vs. Relationship
01:25:52 – A Call Back to Participatory Christianity
01:28:17 – Jonathan’s Resources & Closing

What if the greatest evidence of spiritual maturity isn’t how much theology we know, but how deeply we love God and the people around us? Brandon and Lindsy sit down with Dr. Rob Reimer, author of The Tenderness of Jesus and Soul Care, for a deeply personal conversation about encountering Jesus beyond doctrine. Rob shares his dramatic conversion, his experience through a nine-month “dark night of the soul,” and how seasons of suffering and surrender reshaped his understanding of intimacy with God. Together they explore the tenderness of Jesus, God’s sovereignty and human freedom, dying to self, authentic humility, religious performance, soul care, and why biblical knowledge must become lived transformation. Rob also shares the story behind The Tenderness of Jesus, written originally for his own children, and explains why the cross and eternity provide essential lenses for understanding God’s goodness amid suffering. The conversation closes with recommended classics on spiritual formation, a remarkable healing story from Brazil, and a prayer that we would become people unmistakably marked by having been with Jesus.

https://renewalinternational.org/
Rob's book-https://amzn.to/46nj1nz

Timestamps

00:00:05 – Do You Love God and People More?
00:00:43 – Introducing Dr. Rob Reimer
00:03:06 – Rob’s Background and the Christian & Missionary Alliance
00:05:29 – A Life-Changing Encounter with Jesus
00:07:53 – Brandon’s Dark Night of the Soul
00:09:46 – What the Dark Night of the Soul Really Means
00:12:13 – Revival, Character and Dying to Self
00:14:32 – When the Presence of God Returned
00:16:56 – Sovereignty, Freedom and Human Choice
00:19:19 – God’s Goodness in a Broken World
00:21:40 – The Story Behind The Tenderness of Jesus
00:23:59 – Writing to the Ones You Love About the One You Love
00:26:19 – Soul Care, Freedom and Fullness in Christ
00:28:39 – Emptying the Soul Before Filling It
00:30:43 – Knowledge vs. Actual Spiritual Maturity
00:33:05 – The Religious Spirit and the Condition of the Heart
00:35:32 – Self-Focus, Ministry and Becoming Obsessed with Jesus
00:37:38 – Authentic Humility and Weakness
00:39:44 – Seeing God Through the Cross and Eternity
00:42:07 – Suffering, Homesickness and Our Eternal Citizenship
00:43:59 – Tenderness, Intimacy and the Holiness of God
00:46:00 – Why God’s Love Leads to Transformation
00:48:18 – Jesus’ Tenderness Toward Sinners
00:50:41 – The Cross, Love and Dying to Self
00:53:07 – Rob’s Favorite Classic Soul-Care Books
00:55:14 – Ancient and Modern Spiritual Formation Resources
00:57:36 – Theology, Encounter and Knowing Jesus
00:59:53 – A Remarkable Healing in Brazil
01:02:09 – Where to Find Rob and Closing Prayer

https://join.unrefinedpodcast.com

What if your family patterns, addictions, fears, and trauma are not the final word? In this episode, Brandon and team talk with Dr. Luman Wing about epigenetics, transgenerational sin, addiction, sanctification, and how the gospel may reach even deeper into our embodied lives than most Christians have imagined.

https://amzn.to/3QR8z3H- Dr. Lu's book
https://lumanwing.org/

Timestamps:
01:00 Introducing Dr. Luman Wing and Genes of Eden

03:00 Lu’s encounter with the Jesus Movement and Lonnie Frisbee

05:00 Science, design, and Dean Kenyon’s classroom moment

07:00 Blood, biochemistry, biotechnology, and gene therapy

08:00 How theology and epigenetics came together

09:00 Epigenetics explained in plain English

12:00 Stress, fear, habits, prayer, and gene expression

13:00 Augustine, Pelagianism, and inherited sin

15:00 Adam, shame, fear, and the transgenerational imprint

17:00 Transformation, neuroplasticity, and becoming new creatures

19:00 Addiction, dopamine, anticipation, and “holy wanting”

21:00 Why Leviticus may be more scientific than we think

23:00 The peace offering, adrenal glands, stress, and surrender

25:00 Heart, mind, soul, brain, and the emotional response

27:00 The amygdala, hippocampus, and prefrontal cortex

31:00 Traducianism, the soul, and inherited human brokenness

34:00 Junk DNA, non-coding RNA, and the mystery of the soul

36:00 Being born again and the mystery of redemption

39:00 Does salvation change us epigenetically?

41:00 Romans 7, Romans 8, and progressive sanctification

44:00 The worm, the butterfly, and imaginal cells

46:00 Trauma, PTSD, the amygdala, and getting stuck in loops

48:00 Reason, revelation, Scripture, and renewing the mind

50:00 Stillness with God as a real mental workout

53:00 Exercise, swimming, bilateral movement, and healing patterns

54:00 Generational curses, inherited patterns, and epigenetics

55:00 Holocaust trauma and transgenerational imprinting

58:00 Forgiveness as a powerful interruptor of inherited trauma

01:00:00 Addiction, family patterns, and why DNA is not destiny

01:03:00 Trauma in family history and what may carry forward

01:05:00 Why there is no single “alcoholism gene”

01:07:00 Practically learning stillness, peace, and emotional regulation

01:09:00 Why Christian fellowship matters biologically and spiritually

01:10:00 Identity, becoming, and Dr. Wing’s next book

01:12:00 Potential, formation, consolidation, and identity

01:16:00 Leviticus, burnt offerings, and absolute surrender

01:18:00 Why science “screams” the glory of God

01:19:00 Lu’s personal testimony of trauma and God’s intervention

01:21:00 Hope for believers stuck in family patterns