Folgen

  • #044 - Phill Agnew - Loss Aversion, Effort & Specificity: The Psychology That Actually Drives Conversions

    #044 - Phill Agnew - Loss Aversion, Effort & Specificity: The Psychology That Actually Drives Conversions
    Dec 2 2025

    Throughout our conversation, Phill breaks down the heuristics that marketers consistently underestimate or misuse: loss aversion, social proof, the effort heuristic, and specificity. He explains why showing effort matters more than ever in the age of AI, how to use social proof beyond grayscale logos, and why the most powerful marketing messages are the ones that match the exact language your customers already use.

    One of Phill's biggest insights: losses feel twice as painful as equivalent gains. Research shows that when insulation companies told homeowners "you're losing 75 cents every day" instead of "you could save 75 cents a day," conversions doubled. Amazon uses this when you try to cancel Prime—they don't list benefits, they tell you exactly what you'll lose in savings.

    Phill also shares how Buffer replaced generic logo carousels with specific customer outcomes like "I grew my LinkedIn following by 200%" and saw significant conversion improvements. He breaks down Cialdini's research showing that telling hotel guests "people in this specific room reuse their towels" was more effective than "most people in this hotel reuse their towels"—even though fewer people had stayed in that room. Specificity creates believability.

    CONNECT WITH PHILL
    • Phill Agnew on LinkedIn (Phill with two Ls!)
    • Nudge Podcast Website
    • Nudge Podcast on YouTube
    • The Nudge Vaults (Waitlist)
    SHOW NOTES
    • 00:00 The Risks of Using AI in Marketing
    • 00:39 Introduction to the Message Market Fit Podcast
    • 01:34 Meet Phil Agnew: Host of Nudge Podcast
    • 02:29 The Psychology of Effort and Costly Signaling
    • 08:29 Phil's Journey in Product Marketing
    • 11:32 The Birth of the Nudge Podcast
    • 16:24 The Art of Storytelling in Podcasts
    • 24:57 Understanding Human Decision Making
    • 28:38 The Power of Social Proof
    • 29:24 Understanding Loss Aversion
    • 31:07 The Importance of Audience Understanding
    • 33:37 Effective Use of Social Proof
    • 42:52 The Priming Effect Experiment
    • 50:59 AI and Perceived Effort
    • 56:22 Practical Application of Heuristics
    • 59:56 Conclusion and Resources

    Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

    Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    1 Std. und 1 Min.
  • #043 - Kyle Scott - Voice, Tone & World-Building: How to Write Email Copy That Sells Out Events

    #043 - Kyle Scott - Voice, Tone & World-Building: How to Write Email Copy That Sells Out Events
    Nov 5 2025
    The foundation of this episode rests on a critical distinction that most marketers blur together: **voice versus tone**. Kyle explains that voice is your written personality—it stays consistent across all channels and contexts. Tone, by contrast, is how you inflect that personality based on the situation. Think James Bond: he's always Bond, but his tone shifts when he's with a love interest versus facing a villain. For B2B teams, this means your brand voice should be recognizable everywhere—email, website, social, support—but the tone can adapt to urgency, celebration, education, or crisis. The practical implication? Don't let different team members rewrite your voice. Align on the character first, then let tone flex.Kyle didn't learn to write in Ryan Serhant's voice through copywriting school or brand guidelines. He learned through **listening**—watching Million Dollar Listing, reading his book, listening to his podcast, working alongside him. He absorbed cadence, word choice, energy, and personality through immersion. His advice: if you're writing for a person or personal brand, listen to them speak. If you're writing for a business, find real-world personalities who embody your brand's values and listen to how they talk. Then internalize it. This is more effective than any document because it's about osmosis, not rules. The email breakdown reveals why: Kyle didn't follow a template. He wrote like he was having a conversation with someone he knew.The email itself is a masterclass in **specificity**. Instead of "high up above the skyscrapers," Kyle wrote "1,416 feet in the air." Instead of "luxury listing," he said "$250 million triplex" at "Central Park Tower," the "most expensive listing ever in the United States." Each specific detail makes the reader *feel* the exclusivity. It's not marketing fluff—it's world-building. The specificity creates a mental image that makes the offer feel real and tangible. For B2B: replace "enterprise-grade" with "handles 10M+ transactions per day." Replace "easy to use" with "onboards in under 5 minutes." Specificity is credibility.But Kyle thinks five steps ahead. The email isn't just selling tickets—it's constructing a world of exclusivity around the event. Every element reinforces that world: "Early Access" in the subject line signals insider status. "Since you're on the mastermind wait list" reminds people they're part of a curated group. The Wall Street Journal link (with its paywall) signals prestige—hitting the paywall *reinforces* that this is exclusive. "All showing agents are vetted" means you can't just show up; you have to be approved. "Once it's sold, it'll be forever closed" creates scarcity and finality. This isn't manipulation. It's intentional storytelling. And it matters because the story you tell internally (we sold out in one email) becomes the story you tell externally (everyone wants in now).Kyle also reveals a tactical choice that most marketers miss: he sent the email through HubSpot but made it *look* like a personal email from Outlook. No fancy header. No marketing template. Just "Hi there" and conversational language. Why? Because personal emails get higher open rates, higher engagement, and feel more authentic. When you're selling a $7,000 ticket, you can afford to spend 3–4 hours replying to people personally. That human touch is worth it. The trade-off: you can't use a signup page. You have to be willing to handle the volume of replies. But for high-ticket offers, this is a no-brainer.The bigger picture Kyle emphasizes is this: **in an age where AI can replicate your software in seconds, brand and community are your only defensible advantages**. And brand is built on point of view. Not politics or religion—but a clear stance on where your industry is going and what your customers need to succeed. Perplexity has a POV on AI research. Claude has a POV on safety and privacy. Open AI is more generalist—which is why specialists are carving out niches. For B2B SaaS: if you're not prescriptive about what your customers should do, you're invisible. Tell them what to do. Make it the easy path. Customers are lazy—they want an expert to guide them, not a generic platform.Whether you're a B2B SaaS marketer building brand voice, a copywriter learning the mechanics of persuasive writing, a founder building a personal brand, or a product marketer learning how to position and communicate value, this episode offers practical frameworks for building messaging that cuts through noise and creates desire. Kyle's breakdown of how he constructed exclusivity through language and storytelling is worth a listen—and worth applying to your own work.Enjoy!CONNECT WITH KYLEKyle Scott on LinkedInKyle Scott's NewsletterInstagram: @kylescotsoriginalLuxury PresenceSHOW NOTES00:00 The Power of Brand and Community01:05 Welcome to the Message Market Fit Podcast02:12 Introducing Today's Guest: Kyle Scott02:53 Dissecting a High-Performing Email07:56 The...
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    40 Min.
  • #042 - Sam Dunning - Revenue-First SEO: Money Keywords, Competitor Pages & Building Content Moats

    #042 - Sam Dunning - Revenue-First SEO: Money Keywords, Competitor Pages & Building Content Moats
    Sep 24 2025

    We start by exploring Sam's "Revenue Not Vanity" philosophy and why traditional SEO approaches focused on top-funnel, informational content are becoming less effective. With Google's AI overviews dominating informational searches, Sam explains how the real opportunity lies in bottom-funnel, high-intent keywords where prospects are actively evaluating solutions. His three-column keyword research framework—your offer (however prospects describe it), industries you serve best, and main competitors—creates long-tail opportunities that are less competitive but highly qualified.

    Sam walks us through his transparent approach to competitor content, advocating for pages that build trust by leading with where you're not the best fit before doubling down on your differentiators. This positions you as the helpful guide rather than the pushy salesperson. He also shares his "blow out the water" content strategy, which involves systematically analyzing what's already ranking and one-upping it with better research, customer insights, testimonials, and proof elements.

    We also discuss SEO in the age of AI search, where Sam shares compelling data showing Google still receives 373 times more searches than ChatGPT and all AI tools combined. His strategy focuses on fundamentals that work across both traditional and AI search—particularly brand mentions and getting listed on relevant industry sites. Throughout the conversation, Sam emphasizes that effective SEO content requires deep customer understanding of how prospects describe their problems, what alternatives they're using, and why they choose one solution over another.

    Whether you're a marketing leader trying to prove SEO ROI, a founder looking to build predictable organic pipeline, or a content strategist wanting to move beyond vanity metrics, this episode delivers actionable frameworks you can implement immediately.

    Enjoy!

    CONNECT WITH SAM
    • LinkedIn
    • Breaking B2B Website
    SHOW NOTES
    • 00:00 Introduction and Sam's "Revenue Not Vanity" Value Proposition
    • 03:00 Sam's Journey from Web Agencies to B2B SEO Specialist
    • 06:00 Why Traditional SEO Traffic Doesn't Convert
    • 09:00 The Money Keywords Framework: Offer + Industry + Competitors
    • 15:00 Finding Long-Tail Opportunities in Competitive Markets
    • 18:00 Sam's Content Creation Process and Research Methods
    • 24:00 Building Competitor Comparison Pages That Build Trust
    • 30:00 The "Blow Out the Water" Content Strategy
    • 36:00 Technical SEO vs. Content: Where to Focus Your Energy
    • 40:00 SEO in the Age of AI: Is Google Dead?
    • 44:00 Sam's London Street Experiment: "Has AI Killed Google?"
    • 46:00 Where Sam Goes to Learn and Grow

    Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

    Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    48 Min.
  • 041 - Besnik Vrellaku - Bootstrapping to Millions: The 5-Stage Product Validation Framework That Prevents Building Products Nobody Wants

    041 - Besnik Vrellaku - Bootstrapping to Millions: The 5-Stage Product Validation Framework That Prevents Building Products Nobody Wants
    Sep 3 2025

    We begin by exploring Besnik's journey from launching 10+ failed MVPs to building Salesflow into a multi-million revenue business. He reveals his five-stage product validation framework: discovery interviews with potential customers, landing page testing without building the actual product, audience building (he had 10,000 B2B writer subscribers before launching Content Flow), regional scalability assessment, and growth channel validation. This methodical approach has been crucial to his success in avoiding products that don't solve real market problems.

    Besnik then dives into his sophisticated approach to multi-persona messaging, explaining how Salesflow addresses three distinct customer segments—business owners, sales teams, and agencies—without diluting their message. Rather than trying to speak to everyone on the homepage, they use progressive segmentation, asking users to identify themselves during onboarding and then personalizing the entire app experience, from messaging to feature access. This strategy allows them to maintain high conversion rates while serving diverse use cases.

    We also explore his contrarian view on product-market fit timelines, with Besnik arguing that true PMF takes 12-24 months to validate, not the few weeks or months many founders expect. He looks for workflow integration—when customers fundamentally change how they operate because of your product—and sustained usage patterns over multiple renewal cycles. His growth hacking strategies focus on three key pillars: influencer partnerships, direct outbound using their own product, and expansion revenue from existing customers, but he emphasizes that growth hacking only works when you have solid product foundations.

    Enjoy!

    CONNECT WITH BESNIK
    • Besnik on LinkedIn
    • Salesflow.io
    SHOW NOTES
    • 00:00 Introduction to Besnik Vrellaku and Salesflow.io
    • 03:00 The Genesis of Salesflow: From 10+ MVPs to GTM Software
    • 06:00 Multi-Persona Messaging: Business Owners, Sales Teams, and Agencies
    • 09:00 Progressive Segmentation and Personalized User Journeys
    • 12:00 The Five-Stage Product Validation Framework
    • 15:00 Discovery Interviews and Qualitative Customer Research
    • 18:00 Building Audience Before Product: The Content Flow Example
    • 21:00 Growth Hacking Strategies for Bootstrap Founders
    • 24:00 The Three Pillars of Early-Stage Growth
    • 27:00 Product vs. Marketing vs. Growth Hacking Percentages
    • 30:00 Signs of Product Validation Worth Pursuing
    • 33:00 The Real Timeline for Product-Market Fit
    • 36:00 Message Testing Across Different Customer Personas
    • 39:00 Advice for Young Entrepreneurs: Seek More Help
    • 42:00 Learning Resources and Just-in-Time Knowledge

    Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

    Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    43 Min.
  • #040 - Maxwell Nee - Quiz Marketing's 30% Conversion Secret: Building High-Performance Teams and Market-Driven Growth

    #040 - Maxwell Nee - Quiz Marketing's 30% Conversion Secret: Building High-Performance Teams and Market-Driven Growth
    Aug 20 2025

    Maxwell opens by explaining the psychology behind quiz marketing's superior performance, revealing that personalized experiences combined with ego psychology—people's natural curiosity about themselves—creates a powerful conversion mechanism. He breaks down ScoreApp's comprehensive support philosophy that goes far beyond typical SaaS offerings, including live webinars, one-on-one calls, marketplace partnerships, and even publishing bestselling books on their methodology.

    We explore Maxwell's counterintuitive approach to organic growth, where ScoreApp completely eliminated paid advertising after four years when costs became prohibitive and effectiveness declined. Instead, they focused on SEO, weekly YouTube videos, podcasts, and face-to-face customer events in London, maintaining the same customer quality while reducing acquisition costs. Maxwell emphasizes the importance of absorbing customer feedback "like a sponge" rather than building products in isolation.

    The conversation also covers Maxwell's philosophy that 95% of business problems stem from having the wrong people in wrong positions. He shares his approach to building teams of A-players who naturally elevate each other's performance, comparing it to how Michael Jordan made any basketball team better simply through his presence and high standards. Maxwell also discusses his market-driven product development approach, where co-founder Daniel messaged 3,000 people before launching to gather data on what shape the product should take.

    Whether you're a B2B marketer looking to crack personalization at scale, a founder trying to build high-performing teams, or a growth leader seeking organic acquisition strategies, this episode offers practical frameworks and insights you can implement immediately.

    Enjoy!

    CONNECT WITH MAXWELL
    • Maxwell on LinkedIn
    • ScoreApp
    • Free ScoreApp Book
    SHOW NOTES
    • 00:00 Introduction and Maxwell’s background
    • 03:00 The purpose of marketing beyond driving sales
    • 04:00 ScoreApp’s “forcing clients to be successful” philosophy
    • 06:00 How Maxwell influences messaging as CRO
    • 09:00 The importance of right people in right positions
    • 12:00 What marketing and sales need to agree on
    • 14:00 Introduction to scorecard/quiz marketing
    • 18:00 Most effective use cases for quiz marketing
    • 20:00 Quiz vs traditional call-to-action strategies
    • 22:00 Writing effective quiz questions and AI assistance
    • 24:00 ScoreApp’s visitor-to-lead conversion strategies
    • 27:00 Quiz marketing’s impact on conversion rates (30% vs 10-15%)
    • 29:00 Common lead magnet mistakes companies make
    • 31:00 Scaling to 7,000+ subscribers and organic growth
    • 33:00 Using personalization and customer data insights
    • 35:00 The power of face-to-face customer feedback
    • 37:00 Insights from customer behavior analysis
    • 40:00 Why ScoreApp stopped paying for advertising
    • 42:00 Role of influencer marketing in their strategy
    • 44:00 Maxwell’s learning resources and investment approach

    Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

    Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    36 Min.
  • #039 - Ronnie Higgins - Building In-House Media Engines: Transforming Content Marketing into Strategic Brand Assets

    #039 - Ronnie Higgins - Building In-House Media Engines: Transforming Content Marketing into Strategic Brand Assets
    Aug 6 2025

    Throughout our conversation, Ronnie emphasizes the importance of treating content as a product rather than just a marketing activity. He explains his three core principles for successful content creation: content is a product, content is an experience, and content is an ecosystem. We explore how these principles can help B2B marketers create more effective content strategies that connect with their audience.

    Ronnie also shares his insights on the critical concept of the "day one list" - the pre-existing shortlist of solutions that B2B buyers already have in mind before they even begin their formal buying journey. He explains why getting on this list is crucial, as research shows buyers choose from this list 80% of the time.

    We discuss the relationship between mindshare and attention, with Ronnie breaking down the four stages of attention: peak, merit, reward, and convert. He challenges the notion that mindshare and attention are separate concepts, arguing that mindshare is simply sustained attention over time.

    Whether you're a content marketer, strategist, or SaaS leader looking to build a more effective content engine, this episode offers valuable insights on creating content that resonates with your audience and drives business results.

    Enjoy!

    CONNECT WITH RONNIE
    • Ronnie on LinkedIn
    • Neutral Ground Labs website
    SHOW NOTES
    • 02:29 Using the Hero's Journey in B2B Marketing
    • 04:04 Creating Tension in B2B Storytelling
    • 06:00 Treating Content as a Flight Simulator for Customers
    • 08:59 Ronnie's Background in Media and Film
    • 13:00 From Commodified Content to Strategic Media
    • 17:58 Ronnie's Unique Research Methodology
    • 21:21 Understanding the Day One List in B2B Buying
    • 24:25 Capturing Trigger Events in Your Content Strategy
    • 27:28 The Marketing Marshmallow Test: Balancing Short and Long-Term Results
    • 33:34 The Difference Between Mindshare and Attention
    • 39:00 Why B2B Marketers Should Think Like Broadcasters
    • 43:00 Three Core Principles for Successful Content Creation
    • 45:00 Ronnie's Upcoming Book on Brand to Demand Marketing

    Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

    Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    48 Min.
  • #038 - Vassilena Valchanova - Making Words Work: Creating Effective Brand Messaging Frameworks and Extracting Customer Insights

    #038 - Vassilena Valchanova - Making Words Work: Creating Effective Brand Messaging Frameworks and Extracting Customer Insights
    Jul 23 2025

    We begin by exploring the critical difference between positioning and messaging, with Vassi explaining how positioning focuses on your place in the market while messaging determines what you actually say to your audience. She walks us through her comprehensive messaging framework that helps companies articulate their value pillars in ways that resonate with different customer personas.

    Vassi shares her methodical approach to customer research, emphasizing the importance of focusing on past experiences rather than opinions to uncover genuine insights. She provides practical strategies for extracting valuable information from internal teams, particularly sales professionals who often hold the keys to understanding customer perspectives in B2B environments.

    We also discuss the challenges of implementing messaging frameworks across organizations and how to ensure adoption through proper documentation, training, and follow-up processes. Vassi reveals her approach to using AI tools like ChatGPT and Claude to maintain consistent brand voice, including practical tips for creating prompt libraries that teams can use to generate cohesive content.

    Whether you're a SaaS marketer, content strategist, or brand manager, this episode offers actionable insights to help you develop messaging that truly connects with your target audience and drives results.

    Enjoy!

    CONNECT WITH VASSILENA
    • Vassilena on LinkedIn
    • Marketing Matters Newsletter
    • Strategic Content and Messaging Course
    SHOW NOTES
    • 02:04 Distinguishing Between Positioning and Messaging
    • 04:06 Vassilena's Journey from Full-Stack Marketer to Messaging Expert
    • 07:29 The Typical Messaging Project Process
    • 11:12 Creating an Effective Messaging Framework
    • 15:00 Extracting Voice of Customer from Internal Teams
    • 17:28 Using Past Experiences to Uncover Customer Truth
    • 21:12 The Value of External Consultants in Messaging Projects
    • 24:49 Establishing Trust with Technical Teams
    • 30:12 Common Implementation Mistakes and How to Avoid Them
    • 35:36 Balancing Framework Structure with Persona Flexibility
    • 39:24 Leveraging AI for Consistent Brand Voice
    • 44:12 Organizing Science Events and Translating Complex Concepts
    • 49:36 Vassilena's Content Marketing and Messaging Course

    Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

    Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    53 Min.
  • #037 - Mike Taylor - Mastering Synthetic Market Research: Creating AI Personas for Better Customer Insights

    #037 - Mike Taylor - Mastering Synthetic Market Research: Creating AI Personas for Better Customer Insights
    Jul 9 2025

    Throughout our conversation, Mike emphasizes that synthetic research should enhance rather than replace traditional customer research. He explains how AI personas can help marketers get out of their own heads and gain valuable insights about their customers' perspectives, especially when testing new ideas or messaging. We also discuss common misconceptions about synthetic research and why some marketers are hesitant to embrace it.

    Mike demonstrates how AskRally works through a live demo, showing how you can create detailed personas based on demographic and behavioral data, then ask them questions in a chat interface. We explore how the platform handles bias, ensuring AI personas reflect real-world behaviors rather than idealized responses. Mike also shares examples of how companies are using synthetic research to test ad copy, website messaging, and product features before investing in development or paid advertising.

    One of the most interesting aspects we cover is how synthetic research can be integrated into automated workflows, allowing marketers to continuously test and optimize their messaging at scale. Mike shows how AskRally's API can be used with automation tools to create a feedback loop for creative ideas.

    Whether you're a marketer looking to test messaging more efficiently or a founder trying to better understand your target audience, this episode offers valuable insights into how synthetic research can complement your existing research methods.

    Enjoy!

    CONNECT WITH MIKE
    • Mike on LinkedIn
    • Mike on Twitter
    • AskRally's website
    SHOW NOTES
    • 02:00 Why Traditional Marketers Are Skeptical of Synthetic Research
    • 04:04 Best Use Cases for Synthetic Research
    • 07:00 The Human-AI Feedback Loop
    • 09:00 Using AI to Practice Customer Interviews
    • 11:00 Synthetic Research vs. Traditional Market Research
    • 14:00 How Rally Helps Performance Marketers Test Ad Creative
    • 17:00 The Biggest Misconception About Synthetic Research
    • 21:00 Creating AI Personas Based on Your Target Audience (screenshare)
    • 26:00 Testing Marketing Messages with AI Personas (screenshare)
    • 31:00 Using Images and Video for Synthetic User Testing
    • 39:00 Calibrating AI to Match Real-World Human Biases
    • 43:00 Automating Research with N8N and Rally's API (screenshare)
    • 51:00 How AI Can Help Us Develop Greater Customer Empathy

    Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

    Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
    Mehr anzeigen Weniger anzeigen
    56 Min.