Most advertising doesn’t fail because it’s wrong. It fails because it’s dull and dull is expensive.

In this episode of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne sits down with Adam Morgan and Karen Nelson-Field to unpack the real cost of dull creative and dull media using hard evidence from IPA effectiveness data, System1 testing, and large-scale attention measurement.

The conversation moves beyond taste or opinion and into economics: why rational, low-emotion advertising can still “work” but only by wasting millions; why some media environments structurally suppress attention; and why optimisation, procurement pressure, and performance thinking have quietly normalised mediocrity.

If you work in brand, media, B2B, finance-led marketing, or any category that tells itself it has to be boring, this episode is a wake-up call.

What you’ll learn

• Why 50% of ads struggle to beat a cow chewing grass on attention and emotion
• How dull creative drives up required spend by millions to achieve the same outcomes
• Why CPM is often a cost per meaningless thousand
• How attention volume predicts ROI, memory, and effectiveness
• Why great creative fails when media doesn’t give it a stage
• How risk, responsibility, and “sensible” decisions slowly drain impact from work
• Where AI may actually help creativity rather than flatten it

This episode draws directly on the “Cost of Dull” research programme and explains what it means for marketers trying to balance effectiveness, efficiency, and real-world constraints.

02:27 – What do we actually mean by “dull” advertising?

03:55 – The cow-chewing-grass test and why half of ads lose

06:00 – Attention vs emotion: two ways to measure dullness

08:00 – The Cannes “Ennui” experiment and burning money as a signal

11:10 – What “dull media” really means (and why it’s misunderstood)

13:55 – When great creative is wasted by low-attention environments

16:20 – Is dull creative ever the better option?

17:24 – Trust, facts, and why rational messaging costs more

19:00 – Campaigns vs single ads: where attention is really lost

20:00 – Why mix matters more than hero-only thinking

21:00 – Global differences: creative vs media effects

23:00 – Why B2B marketing is structurally duller and the cost of that

26:00 – The “dull eclipse”: performance mindset, optimisation, benchmarks

28:20 – Procurement, pricing pressure, and creative erosion

31:00 – CPM, wastage, and the illusion of efficiency

34:20 – AI, challenger brands, and testing creativity at speed

37:55 – Risk vs responsibility: how sensible decisions kill ideas

41:00 – What marketers can actually do differently

43:45 – Final reflections and where the research goes next

About the guests

Adam Morgan is co-founder of Eatbigfish and a leading voice on challenger brands, effectiveness, and commercial creativity.

Karen Nelson-Field is Professor of Media Science and one of the world’s foremost researchers on attention, media value, and advertising effectiveness.

If you’re trying to explain to a CFO, procurement team, or board why “safe” work keeps underperforming, this episode gives you the language and the evidence to do it properly.

Content Mentioned in the Episode:

1. Risk & Responsibility https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuJx2IJjaFw
2. Cost of Dull Media Report https://21467338.fs1.hubspotusercontent-ap1.net/hubfs/21467338/COMPANY%20MATERIALS/Cost%20of%20Dull%20Final.pdf
3. Cost of Dull Eat Big Fish https://www.eatbigfish.com/thinking/challengers-and-cost-of-dull

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François Bazini, CMO of Suntory Beverage & Food Europe is one of the most thoughtful brand CMOs in global FMCG

François shares a rare, inside view of what it really means to be a brand steward in organisations like Danone, BCG, PepsiCo and Suntory. From resisting short-term zig-zagging, to building brands that can withstand private label pressure, this conversation goes deep on the realities of modern brand leadership. We explore why marketers must act as brand CEOs, how tension with CFOs can be productive rather than problematic, and why targeting older audiences is one of the most under-exploited growth opportunities in marketing today. François also unpacks the Ribena turnaround, Schweppes’ response to Fever-Tree, and why most advertising testing is misunderstood. This is a wide-ranging, honest discussion about judgment, evidence, culture, and the long game in brand building.

Topics include: Brand stewardship vs short-termism, marketing ROI, working with finance, global vs local marketing roles, age targeting myths, private label competition, creative testing, and why some brands endure while others drift.

03:25 – Career path: from Danone to consulting and global brand roles

04:55 – What BCG teaches marketers about being fact-based

07:00 – Brand stewardship and avoiding strategic zig-zagging

09:30 – Timeless vs timely brand decisions

11:00 – Marketing ROI beyond short-term sales

12:30 – Marketers as brand CEOs

13:45 – Working with CFOs and productive tension

16:00 – Global vs local marketing roles

20:00 – Ribena: brand decline and recovery

22:30 – Going back to a brand’s peak moment

26:00 – The myth of always targeting youth

29:00 – Schweppes, Fever-Tree and category disruption

31:45 – Targeting over-45s unapologetically

34:00 – Media thresholds and focus over fragmentation

35:45 – Moving beyond marketing mix modelling

38:15 – The limits of advertising testing

41:00 – When great ads fail tests but succeed commercially

42:20 – Competing with private label

43:00 – DAQV: desirability, affordability, quality, visibility

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What happens when a radio comedian, a senior drinks marketer, and a 2,000-year-old Roman hydration recipe collide?

In this episode of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne sits down with Merrick Watts and Ed Stening, co-founders of Posca Hydrate — a sugar-free, hypertonic hydration drink inspired by ancient Roman Posca.

Posca isn’t a nostalgia play. It’s a sugar-free, hypertonic drink inspired by a Roman solution to unsafe water — rebuilt for modern life, modern habits, and modern expectations. That means confronting everything from flavour and formulation to packaging, positioning, and retail resistance.

Along the way, Merrick and Ed unpack a set of ideas that matter far beyond drinks:

Why liquid still matters more than marketing.

Why category creation is harder than brand building.

Why refusing “me-too” formats can slow growth — but protect belief.

And why brands should aim for humour, not jokes.

Merrick explains why jokes age quickly, but a sense of humour travels across audiences, occasions, and time and how that thinking shapes Posca’s tone, creative decisions, and internal culture. It’s not about being funny. It’s about not taking yourself seriously while taking the product seriously.

They also discuss building brand in-house rather than outsourcing belief, measuring brand as a startup using Tracksuit, balancing mental and physical availability, and what it really takes to scale a challenger brand globally without losing the story that made it matter in the first place.

This is a conversation about founders, flavour, brand discipline, and the uncomfortable decisions that come with doing something genuinely different.

3:50 – From radio comedy to drinks founder

5:50 – Why the liquid comes first

7:50 – The Roman origin of Posca

10:50 – Turning history into a brand story

14:50 – Ancient wisdom meets modern science

16:20 – Building brand from the inside out

19:50 – Tone, humour, and taking the product seriously

23:50 – Building a category, not fitting one

29:50 – Brand vs physical availability

32:50 – Measuring

34:50 – Global expansion strategy

38:50 – The hypertonic breakthrough moment

44:50 – Risk and belief

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Kit Kats Global Head of Marketing Shares what it really takes to build and protect an iconic global brand?

In this season opener for Season 5 of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne is joined by Wael Jabi, KitKats Global Head of Marketing at Nestlé, for a deep conversation about brand judgement, consistency, partnerships, and the decisions that quietly shape long-term growth.

Wael’s career spans Leo Burnett, Procter & Gamble, and Nestlé, and the discussion moves well beyond surface-level case studies. Together, they explore what KitKat teaches us about resisting reinvention, diagnosing the right marketing problems under pressure, and how major cultural platforms like Formula 1 can be used to express brand meaning rather than dilute it.

This is a practical, reflective conversation for CMOs, brand leaders, and senior marketers who care about building brands that last not just chasing short-term performance.

Topics covered include:

• Why most brands don’t need reinvention they need restraint
• The marketing failure that taught Wael when price becomes the wrong answer
• What KitKat gets right about consistency and memory structures
• How to think about F1 and major sponsorships without losing brand meaning
• Brand vs performance decisions under pressure
• Why judgement matters more than tactics at senior levels

01:55 – Wael’s career path: agency to P&G

05:50 – Why advertising isn’t the most important thing

09:40 – A pricing decision that went wrong

14:20 – Diagnosing the wrong marketing problem

18:40 – KitKat and brand consistency

23:15 – “Breaks are broken” insight

26:50 – Making iconic work at global scale

30:20 – Formula 1 and partnerships

34:50 – Showing up in your world vs theirs

38:20 – Judgement under pressure

41:00 – What’s next for KitKat

Thanks to Tracksuit for their partnership with this episode, check out https://www.gotracksuit.com to find out more about the always on brand tracking platform

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Don't Look Back In Anger - the episode where we look back at the biggest stories we covered on The Singles and see how those brands have gotten on this year. So What happens after the marketing headlines fade? Let's we revisit some of the biggest brand stories of 2025 — and test them against what actually changed over time. Using always-on brand health data from Tracksuit, Conor Byrne is joined by Dan and Jasper to look back at Tesla, American Eagle, Rhode, and Deliveroo, six to nine months after the noise. Not opinions. Not predictions. Just evidence of where attention turned into demand — and where it didn’t.

Across very different categories, a consistent pattern emerges: “The campaign didn’t hurt sales — but the brand is weaker than it was.”

In this episode, we explore:

• Why Tesla still dominates innovation perception but is leaking trust and preference in both the US and UK
• How American Eagle’s controversial campaign held short-term revenue while brand fundamentals quietly eroded
• What Rhode’s acquisition by e.l.f. gets right — and the brand risks that come with scaling distribution
• Why Deliveroo, post-DoorDash acquisition, faces a preference problem in a category defined by low loyalty and easy switching

This is a conversation is about thinking about long-term demand, pricing power, and resilience not just quarterly performance. If you care about the gap between being noticed and being chosen, this episode is for you.

02:40 – Tesla: innovation without reassurance

11:40 – American Eagle: sales hold, brand weakens

17:45 – Rhode: scaling without dilution

23:05 – Deliveroo: preference in a default-driven category

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Which Christmas ads did Irish viewers love in 2025?

In this special Christmas edition of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne is joined by Ciara Reilly from Red C Research, Linda Bradley (Head of Planning, Diageo Ireland), and Marc Smith (Global Director of Insights & Analytics, Mark Anthony Brands) to reveal the Top 20 Christmas Ads in Ireland, as ranked by real consumers on the Red Star testing platform.

We analyse the biggest festive campaigns of the season, including:

Tesco, SuperValu, Lidl, Spar, Sky Mobile, An Post, Vodafone, Boots, Dunnes Stores, Home Store + More, M&S, Woodie’s, Eason, Aldi, Amazon, and Coca-Cola.

Across the episode we explore:

• Why some Irish Christmas ads performed far better than expected

• The surprising gap between marketer opinion vs consumer reaction

• What emotional storytelling gets right and wrong at Christmas

• How branding, memory structures and fluent devices shaped the rankings

• Why consistency helped brands stand out

• The role of humour, reality, nostalgia and AI in this year’s festive campaigns

Whether you work in marketing, advertising, strategy, media, or creative, this deep dive into the best Christmas ads of the year reveals what truly resonates with audiences and what doesn’t.

🎄 Brands discussed: Tesco, SuperValu, Lidl, Spar, Sky Mobile, An Post, Vodafone, Boots, Dunnes Stores, Woodie’s, Home Store + More, M&S, Eason, Aldi, Amazon, Coca-Cola.

📍 CHAPTERS

03:03 The lowest ranked ads

05:18 John Lewis debate emotional truth vs emotional fit

07:41 Functional ads & the problem of “sameness”

13:28 Sea Swim: why it keeps winning hearts

15:27 Sky Mobile & the Roy Keane effect

17:23 National Lottery: a new less fun direction

21:25 An Post Tin: Man does the story need a new chapter?

23:33 M&S Food: when style overtakes substance

26:20 Home Store + More the surprise hit

27:56 Coca-Cola Holidays Are Coming (AI version)

30:56 Dunnes Stores Shine Bright: the craft that endures

32:50 Aldi & Kevin the Carrot: did they need a 3 parter?

36:00 Eason: an emotional standout

38:56 Amazon: a global festive story returns

41:54 Woodie’s crowned #1 in Ireland https://www.youtube.com/shorts/22prv5XcpSM

44:50 The panel’s all-time favourite Christmas ads

Check out the Red Star Testing Platform https://redcresearch.com/product/red-star/

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The episode begins with the new Netflix × Spotify partnership, where Spotify's video podcasts will sit on Netflix from 2026. Conor, Dan and Jasper discuss what this means for streaming, how it challenges YouTube’s dominance in video podcasts, and why Netflix’s broad familiarity.

Next, the conversation moves to banking in the UK, where legacy brands like Barclays face pressure from digital challengers including Monzo, Revolut and Wise. Tracksuit data shows Barclays’ awareness remains high at 89%, but consideration and investigation are slipping — especially among 18–34s — as Monzo builds strength through simplicity, transparency and real-time product features. The team unpack why refer-a-friend programmes, user experience, and “is for people like me” perceptions are shifting the category.

The third story looks at Movember and Rebel Sport in Australia, exploring how both brands use emotional connection, identity and community to drive engagement. With Rebel’s awareness falling from 79% to 75% and usage also declining, the team discusses why emotional relevance matters, how Rebel’s “Town Without Sport” campaign reframes sport as cultural belonging, and how Movember has evolved into a global identity brand around men’s wellbeing and shared participation through the iconic moustache.

The episode closes with a debate about Coca-Cola’s AI-generated Christmas ad, the role of distinctive brand assets, and whether AI is truly “pushing the boundaries of creativity” or simply versioning existing ideas. Conor challenges Coke’s framing, while Dan and Jasper discuss industry reactions, production choices and early System1 results from this year’s work.

Whether you're a brand leader, strategist, or marketer working across multiple markets, this month’s Singles offers grounded data, clear examples, and practical discussions shaped by Tracksuit’s real-time brand metrics.

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First Aired 23rd Dec 2023, this is the never before told story behind the making of the iconic Guinness Christmas Ad. Tom Kinsella, Damian Devaney, Mark Nutley and Pat Hamill who were part of the team client and agency side that made this ad join That's What I Call Marketing to talk about creating what has become one of the greatest Christmas Ads of all time. We discuss the development process, challenges encountered, and the enduring success of the ad after its release. The conversation highlights the power of creativity, the critical role of collaboration between agencies and clients, and the essential element of investing time and effort into crafting an impactful advertisement. Some key moments include

• 04:21 The Creative Process and Challenges
• 25:57 The Role of Music in the Ad
• 32:22 The Risk of Leaving Out the Pint
• 39:26 The Importance of Distinctive Assets
• 48:01 The Impact of the Ad Over Time
• 56:22 The Power of Creativity and Investment

But there is a tonne more, the power of music, the emergence of the line at the home of the black stuff, sweating the small stuff, investing in brilliance. So enjoy this episode about a story that has never been told. Special mention to the many others involved in the project:

• Mal Stevenson-Creative Director
• John Kelly-Voiceover
• Noel Byrne - Head of production
• Margo Tracey- Producer
• Mark Grehan/ Brendan Coyle – Account Director
• Grainne O’Driscoll-Account Manager
• Paddy Gibbons-Sound Mix
• April Redmond - Diageo
• Ronan Byrne - Diageo
• Niamh Cribbin - Diageo
• Paul Kelly - Diageo
• Mark Ody - Diageo
• Michael Ioakimides - Diageo
• Charles Coase - Diageo

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