Anthony Barton was a successful business owner when a trust attorney asked what his family mission statement was - not his business one.

That question pushed him beyond leaving a gift toward building a legacy, and within 90 days he and his family were serving in Swaziland.

Cancer later clarified the shift. Anthony sold his company, entered seminary, and now coaches Christian entrepreneurs through Convene.

In this conversation he shares frameworks for pausing and pivoting, caring for people as image-bearers, and looking for God's providence in disruption.

6. KEY TAKEAWAYS

1. A gift and a legacy aren't the same thing. Anthony's trajectory changed when he began thinking about what his family could build together for God rather than simply what he could someday leave behind.

2. God can use disruption to clarify calling. Anthony describes cancer as brutal, but also as a season that brought unusual clarity about where his life needed to go next.

3. You cannot pivot well if you never pause. Healthy leaders and organizations stop long enough to evaluate what is happening before they change direction.

4. People are not resources. Christian leadership should see people as individuals made in the image of God, not simply inputs for organizational productivity.

5. Providence may be the most important P. In business, ministry, transition, and suffering, Anthony keeps returning to one question: Where is God's providence in all that we do?

7. CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 - Welcome Anthony Barton

Matt introduces Anthony and begins with the major turning point in 2013.

00:47 - Gift or Legacy?

A trust attorney asks Anthony a question that changes how he thinks about what he will leave his family.

07:59 - The Next Disruption: Cancer

A cancer diagnosis reshapes Anthony's understanding of life, calling, and what he wants to build.

13:15 - Protect, Pause, and Pivot

Anthony shares leadership priorities beyond profit and productivity, including pause and pivot.

23:17 - The Eight F's Diagnostic

Anthony introduces a simple framework for understanding the people you lead beyond what they produce.

8. RESOURCES

If you’re navigating a ministry transition, visit Ministry Transitions to explore resources or start a confidential conversation.

To learn more about Anthony Barton and his work with Christian business leaders, visit Anthony Barton at Convene.

You can also explore Convene.

Resources:

Ministry Transitions

Anthony Barton at Convene

Convene

What happens when trust breaks inside a church, nonprofit, or leadership team?

Dr. Rob McKenna explains why trust is more than a feeling, how leaders can rebuild it after failure, and why succession is really the transfer of trust.

This conversation explores emotional maturity, candor, vulnerability, blind spots, competence, reliability, and the three questions every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?

• Trust has identifiable drivers, including candor, competence, reliability, emotional maturity, and concern for others.
• Nearly half of employees experience their workplace as a “jungle of trust.”
• Competence matters, but competence alone does not make someone a trusted leader.
• Rebuilding trust requires responsibility, self-awareness, grace, and continual repair.
• Succession is more than transferring a role; it is transferring trust into a team and organizational culture.
• Leaders must create conditions where people can tell the truth and receive difficult feedback.
• Every team member is asking: Do I matter? Are you telling me the truth? Do I belong here?

00:00 – Succession as the transfer of trust
01:23 – Introducing Dr. Rob McKenna
02:15 – Why trust is difficult in ministry and nonprofit organizations
06:04 – The State of Trust at Work
08:34 – Signs that trust is missing
10:25 – Why competence alone is not enough
14:19 – What it means to be a whole leader
18:00 – Handling difficult conversations during transition
20:00 – Succession and the transfer of trust
24:51 – How leaders rebuild trust after failure
28:34 – Blind spots and meaningful change
32:44 – What individuals can do in a jungle of trust
35:57 – How organizations can begin rebuilding trust
39:00 – Closing thoughts and resources

Visit MinistryTransitions.com if a leadership transition is exposing cracks in trust. To learn more about Dr. Rob McKenna’s work, Whole Leaders, Wild Trust, and WiLD Leaders’ tools, visit wildleaders.org.

Most ministry leaders expect to decide when they step away. Dennis Atwood never had that opportunity.

After serving churches for nearly three decades, Dennis was diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson's disease. He quietly carried the diagnosis for years before the progression of the disease forced him to step away from the pastorate he loved.

In this deeply honest conversation, Dennis reflects on grief, identity, suffering, and why choosing gratitude isn't about denying pain but discovering God's faithfulness in the middle of it.

• Unexpected health challenges can reshape both ministry and identity.
• Grief is a natural part of leaving a calling you deeply love.
• Gratitude isn't the absence of suffering but a response to God's faithfulness within it.
• Ministry leaders need purpose beyond the title they hold.
• God often brings deep spiritual formation through seasons we would never choose.

00:00 Dennis' pastoral journey and ministry background

01:45 An early Parkinson's diagnosis changes everything

03:30 Why Dennis kept his diagnosis private for years

07:45 Telling the church and preparing for transition

11:00 Missing ministry more than expected

13:15 Becoming a caregiver and navigating family transition

14:30 Holy discontent and living with purpose

16:20 Choosing gratitude through suffering

20:00 The dark night of the soul and spiritual formation

25:30 Encouragement for leaders whose ministry ended unexpectedly

If you're facing a ministry transition or unexpected life change, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Dennis and his book Choosing Gratitude at Market Square Books.

Missionaries spend years preparing to go to the field, but few are prepared for what it feels like to come home.

After serving six years in Germany, Nate and Brittany Bruns share the unexpected challenges of returning to the United States, navigating reverse culture shock, raising third-culture kids, and rebuilding community.

Ultimately, they discovered God was calling them to live as missionaries in their own country.

Their story offers practical encouragement for missionaries, churches, and anyone walking through an unexpected ministry transition.

• Reverse culture shock can be more difficult than moving overseas.
• Missionary transitions affect spouses, children, and the entire family.
• God often prepares leaders for future seasons long before they understand why.
• Returning missionaries bring valuable wisdom that can strengthen the local church.
• Waiting on God is an active posture of trust, not passive inactivity.

00:00 Job loss, the desert season, and God's unexpected call to Germany

04:30 Reaching a post-Christian culture through relationships

07:15 When God said it was time to come home

11:15 Reverse culture shock and becoming strangers in your own country

16:00 Helping third-culture kids navigate transition

20:15 How churches can better care for returning missionaries

23:30 What America can learn from post-Christian Europe

26:45 Financial transitions and rebuilding support

30:00 Waiting on God and discerning what's next

34:00 The Bruns Tribe and engaging the spiritually disengaged

36:30 Encouragement for missionaries in transition

If you're navigating a ministry transition, we'd love to help. Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Nate and Brittany's ministry at The Bruns Tribe.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

In Episode 2 of the Life After Ministry Podcast, we sit down with Bill Tom, Founder, CEO, and Chief Ministry Officer of Pastoral Transitions.

With a rich background in career coaching and executive search, Bill offers priceless advice on vocational discernment for those exiting ministry roles.

The episode, aptly titled "How To Figure Out Your Career After Ministry," provides a roadmap for navigating life's next chapter. Bill also reveals the recurring theme he encountered in his office that was the catalyst for creating Pastoral Transitions.

Tune in for profound insights that could be your first steps toward a fulfilling second act.

What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation?

For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent.

In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges.

Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering.

• From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020.
• The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated.
• Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?”
• Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him.
• The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess.

• "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us."
• "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like."
• "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart."
• "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens."

• 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher
• 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit
• 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation
• 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation
• 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall
• 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help
• 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success
• 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness

Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles

This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

In Episode 8, we sit down with Gary Weaber, who poured his heart into pastoral ministry for over three and a half decades. Imagine, after 36 dedicated years, facing a conversation with your elders about stepping down from your teaching role.

Most pastors dread this talk, fearing miscommunication, hurt, and the potential fallout that could affect the congregation.

Yet, Gary's story shines a different light.

Instead of walking away with wounds, he left that meeting feeling uplifted, rating the experience an impressive 11 out of 10.

So, what was their secret?

Gary shares the foundation of trust, open communication, and mutual respect they had nurtured over the years. It's a testament to what's possible when leaders prioritize relationships and unity.

Now, as he embraces a new chapter with Stand Stone Ministry, Gary's journey offers invaluable insights for church elders and pastors approaching similar crossroads. Dive in and discover the keys to navigating these pivotal transitions with grace, understanding, and a shared vision.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/ To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk

Summary

It’s the reason we started the Life After Ministry podcast: the distressing experiences of leadership figures within the ministry who've faced the severe blow of unjust terminations or forced resignations. Join us as we explore this crucial topic with Dr. Matthew Tanner, founder of Wounded Leadership, an organization committed to offering restoration and healing for these traumatized leaders.

Starting from his personal experiences, Dr. Tanner equates the transformative journey of these leaders with the smelting process of metal: uncomfortable yet crucial for ultimately achieving fortitude and resilience. Emphasizing the importance of community support during this healing period, he not only confronts the issue of wounded leaders but strategizes preemptive measures to avoid such incidents.

Unveiling a structured four-step healing plan, Dr. Tanner discusses how such challenging experiences can lead to self-growth, reinforcing the necessity for self-care and constructing a stronger, more humble leader. Drawing from biblical instances, he provides comforting assurance that even revered religious figures have undergone similar struggles.

The conversation underlines the role of the church in supporting pastors during their leaving process and subsequently, its responsibility in providing substantial severance and counseling services. Dr. Tanner provides a comprehensive guide to managing forced resignations and unjustified terminations.

Dr. Tanner also introduces his book "The Wounded Pastor," along with details about an upcoming conference designed to aid pastors in dealing with challenging pastoral transitions. This episode is essential for anyone going through hard times within the ministry or facing their exit from it. Healing is on the horizon.

Takeaways

• Unjustified terminations of pastors are a significant problem in evangelical denominations, affecting tens of thousands of pastors each year.

• Pastors who have been forced out of ministry often face isolation and struggle to find support networks.

• Healing from the wounds of termination involves economic, emotional, spiritual, and leadership development processes.

• Churches should handle terminations with generosity and care, providing severance, counseling, and assistance in finding the next step.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background

01:02 - Personal Experience and Writing the Book

03:14 - Challenges and Questions in Ministry

05:37 - Extent of the Problem

07:05 - Isolation and the Need for Support

08:25 - Diversifying Relationships and Support Systems

09:23 - Balancing Personal and Church Relationships

11:45 - Transitioning from Pastor to Churchgoer

13:48 - Overcoming the Pastoral Mindset

14:46 - The Healing Journey for Wounded Pastors

19:51 - The Process of Termination and Wounding

22:23 - The Importance of Generosity and Care in Termination

26:18 - Promoting Healing through the Book and Conference

30:47 - Collaboration and Support for Wounded Pastors