This week I continue my conversation with the Rev. Dr. Lillian Daniel, Conference Minister of the Michigan Conference of the United Church of Christ and author of Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church. If you haven’t heard Part 1, you might want to start with Episode 8 (but you don't have to!).

CW: Our conversation covers briefly the topic of childhood sexual abuse

In this half of the conversation, we turned to the questions that decide whether anyone actually makes it through the church door. We talked about Defrocked’s chapter on locked doors, what it’s like to be shut out of church when you most need it, and why “everyone is welcome here” isn’t the same as “we designed this with you in mind.”

Several themes came up, including:

• Preaching with conviction, surprising people, and why curiosity matters more than a degree
• Sharing resources ecumenically, from offices and Wi-Fi to clergy
• Why the most important person in the church is the one who isn’t there yet
• Hospitality, mission, and evangelism: finding language for invitation that doesn’t feel like a pamphlet on the doorstep
• Signs of hope, including intergenerational worship, accessible space, and welcoming people with different kinds of minds and bodies
• Why a church is either open to the public or a private social club

One of the resources that comes up in this episode is Lillian’s book Defrocked. We also mention the intergenerational Mitten Project and work in the Michigan Conference to develop congregations that are WISE for Mental Health.

Support the show

Thanks for your interest in Church-y Conversations with People Who Know Things.

If something in this episode stuck with you, hit subscribe and leave a rating or review! It genuinely helps others find these conversations. And if you know someone you think would benefit from this conversation, share this episode with them!

Until next time: keep asking the church-y questions and having church-y conversations.

This week I'm releasing the first half of my talk with the Rev. Dr. Lillian Daniel, Conference Minister of the Michigan Conference of the United Church of Christ and author of Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church (Vilicus Press, 2026). Lillian is a preacher, teacher, and writer, and she cares deeply about clergy and congregations.

We talked about why Lillian wrote Defrocked as a failure story, and about why the church, even in our more open-minded and welcoming denominations, is so bad at talking about failure. We also swapped stories about the detours, rejections, and firings that turned out to point us toward ministry.

Several themes came up, including:

• Why perfectionism may be the church’s chief heresy
• How writing a hard story honestly, without resentment, an “I told you so,” or casting yourself as victim or villain, can change you
• How church processes are written and enforced by human beings, and how processes meant to protect people can also cause harm
• The partnership between the United Church of Christ and The United Church of Canada, and why cross-border conversations matter right now

Two of the books that come up in this episode are Defrocked and Lillian’s earlier book, This Odd and Wondrous Calling, which is taught in many seminaries. We also mention Barbara Brown Taylor’s Leaving Church. Our conversation was so great, next week stay tuned for Part 2!

Support the show

Thanks for your interest in Church-y Conversations with People Who Know Things.

If something in this episode stuck with you, hit subscribe and leave a rating or review! It genuinely helps others find these conversations. And if you know someone you think would benefit from this conversation, share this episode with them!

Until next time: keep asking the church-y questions and having church-y conversations.

My colleague and friend, the Rev. Mitchell Anderson, lead minister at St. Paul's United Church in Saskatoon, joined me to discuss the ways he holds governance, administration, leadership and ministry together. St. Paul's is one of the fastest growing congregations in the United Church. St. Paul's statement of welcome shares:

Who do we welcome at St. Paul's

Our church strives to be a place where every person is welcomed, valued, and loved. We believe that all people are created in the image of God, and we joyfully embrace individuals of every age, race, gender identity, and sexual orientation. Whether you are exploring faith for the first time or have been part of church life for years, you are invited to bring your whole self into our community. Here, you will find a safe, affirming space to worship, grow, ask questions, and belong—just as you are.

More than church growth, Mitchell shared some of his views on making faithful planning choices, and how he has married his executive skillset earned in his MBA and honed through leading boards of large institutions alongside his ministry.

Mitchell is passionate about sharing the life-changing good news of Jesus Christ with new people and renewing the church through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is currently pursuing a doctorate of ministry in leadership at Tyndale University. In addition to this theological education, Mitchell holds an MBA and advises and serves on the boards of local, provincial, and national organizations, bringing together financial and strategic insight to advance social change. He enjoys fitness, great coffee, and experiencing the natural and human beauty of the Prairies and Saskatoon with his husband Jordan.

Support the show

Thanks for your interest in Church-y Conversations with People Who Know Things.

If something in this episode stuck with you, hit subscribe and leave a rating or review! It genuinely helps others find these conversations. And if you know someone you think would benefit from this conversation, share this episode with them!

Until next time: keep asking the church-y questions and having church-y conversations.