Marketers love the idea that more data will finally prove marketing’s value. But what if more evidence doesn’t create more confidence or more budget protection?

In this solo episode, Matt Butler breaks down the misconception behind “premium” measurement signals like incremental conversions from major platforms and why they’re often treated as a shiny upgrade instead of the bare minimum. The real problem isn’t a lack of tracking. It’s a lack of demonstrated business outcomes.

This conversation reframes incrementality as the core proof marketers actually need: measurable, incremental sales growth. Not attribution theater. Not dashboard volume. Real lift that a CFO can trust and a leadership team can fund.

In this episode:

• Why “more data” rarely translates into more credibility
• What incremental conversions really represent (and what they don’t)
• The trap of optimizing for tracking instead of outcomes
• Why incremental sales growth is the only proof that protects budget
• How to align measurement with real business impact

If you’re responsible for performance, growth, or marketing effectiveness, this episode is a reset: stop chasing proof that looks impressive and start proving what changes the business.

What does it really take to build something that wins — not just once, but over time?

In Episode 18 of the Branching Out Podcast, host Matt Butler sits down with Caleb Sewell, Sporting Director of FC Tulsa and former professional goalkeeper, for a deep leadership case study that goes far beyond sports.

This is not a career interview. It’s a conversation about systems, standards, and truth.

Using Caleb’s journey from player to executive leadership, this episode explores what leaders should focus on beforeresults show up — and how to stay disciplined when outcomes lag good strategy.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Decision-making under uncertainty
• Building systems instead of chasing short-term wins
• Why results often lag strong strategy
• How leaders measure progress before the scoreboard changes
• Accountability, truthful measurement, and uncomfortable data
• Culture as an operating system, not a buzzword
• Why excellence requires alignment, not heroics

Caleb shares how he helped lead a long-term transformation at FC Tulsa by setting clear standards, communicating the “why” behind change, and building coalitions instead of relying on quick fixes.

The leadership lessons in this episode apply whether you’re:

• Running a football club
• Leading a marketing or growth team
• Managing performance in high-pressure environments
• Or building an organization meant to last

At its core, this episode is about refusing to be associated with average — and understanding that excellence is built collectively, over time, with clarity, patience, and accountability.

🎙️ Listen to Episode 18 of Branching Out now.

In Episode 17, Part 2, we conclude our conversation with Sameer Modha by moving from philosophy into practice.

This episode focuses on the realities of marketing measurement once the analysis is done and the conversations begin.

We discuss:

• What it really takes to deliver tough measurement news
• Why “good-looking” dashboards can still lead to poor decisions
• Practical methodologies and the tradeoffs behind them
• Ongoing industry debates around attribution, incrementality, and automation
• How dashboards should be used as tools, not shields
• And where marketing measurement is heading as expectations continue to rise

Part 2 is about responsibility.

Because measurement doesn’t stop at reporting. It continues when teams are asked to explain impact, defend budgets, and make decisions under uncertainty.

This conversation is especially relevant for marketers, analysts, and leaders who want measurement to reflect real business outcomes, not just surface-level performance.

We want to sincerely thank Sameer Modha for joining us and for bringing such clarity, honesty, and thoughtfulness to this two-part conversation. His perspective made this episode what it is.

👉 If you haven’t listened yet, we recommend starting with Episode 17, Part 1, which covers career journeys, the philosophy of data and marketing, and why honesty is the foundation of meaningful measurement.

Thanks for listening, and we hope this conversation helps you approach measurement with clearer eyes and better questions.

marketing measurement, marketing analytics, attribution modeling, incrementality, dashboards, marketing automation, marketing ROI, business impact, analytics strategy, data-driven marketing, future of marketing, marketing leadership, decision making

Inside the Room: Russ, Steven & Matt on the New Rules of Marketing Recorded live at the Phocuswright summit, this episode brings you into the front row of an unfiltered conversation between Matt Butler (CEO, Bonsai ) and industry leaders Russ Hannig (former Gabb and Space SX) and Steven Thomas (Camping World), as they break down the future of marketing measurement, the rise of first-party data, and why truthful, causal-driven analytics are becoming the new competitive edge. In this 30-minute session, they dig into: Why traditional marketing measurement frameworks are failing The disconnect between P&L reality and marketing dashboards How leaders should rethink ROI, incrementality, and media allocation What actually drives business growth—not just campaign-level wins The shift from intuition-led decisions to evidence-based marketing How first-party customer data is reshaping strategy, privacy, and performance. Why the best teams are moving away from “hopeful dashboards” and toward truthful measurement Whether you're a CMO, analyst, agency leader, or growth operator, this conversation delivers practical insights on how to make smarter decisions, reclaim marketing impact, and navigate a world where algorithms, attribution, and privacy standards are reshaping everything. ✨ If you care about real ROI, causal inference, marketing analytics, and business growth—you’ll want to hear this.

Episode 15 — The Case Against Conversions

Recorded live at the Bonsai headquarters during our on-site meeting in Wheaton, Illinois, this special surprise episode flips the usual studio format on its head.

In this session, Matt pulls team members on stage one by one — completely unannounced — to unpack one of the most misunderstood topics in marketing analytics: why conversion data alone can’t be trusted.

With our entire Bonsai team as the live audience, this episode blends sharp insights with candid reactions, team banter, and genuine moments of honesty about the state of measurement today.

You’ll hear from surprise guest employees across product, analytics, engineering, CX, leadership, and more as they react in real time to questions like:

• Why do conversions fall short as a performance metric?
• Where do marketers get misled?
• What signals actually matter?
• How should teams evolve their measurement mindset in 2025?

It’s fun. It’s heartfelt. It’s chaotic in the best way. And it’s a rare behind-the-scenes look at how the Bonsai team genuinely thinks about truth in marketing.

🎧 Listen now — and join us as we make the case against conversions, live from Wheaton.

In this episode Matt sat down with Eric Schlickman — architect-turned-restaurateur — to dive into his journey from designing buildings to building community through food, faith, and creativity. Eric shares how he launched 302 Wheaton(a burger concept turned local gathering spot), and how his values of family, work ethic, and faith have shaped every step of his entrepreneurial path.

We talk about:

• How his early life, architecture background, and networking prepared him for the leap into hospitality
• The story behind 302 Wheaton, converting old spaces into vibrant neighborhood hubs
• His vision for new ventures like Dough & The Backyard and upcoming projects in downtown Wheaton Fairhaven Wealth+4Shaw Local+4Glancer Magazine+4
• The role of community, design, and place-making in the restaurant business
• Lessons learned, challenges, and advice for aspiring creators and entrepreneurs

If you love stories about reinvention, local business, and the intersection of design + hospitality, you’re going to enjoy this one!

In this episode of Branching Out, we’re talking AI — not in theory, but in practice. Matt Butler interviewed our guest, Matt Seitz, Director of the AI Hub at the University of Wisconsin and former Director of Performance for Google Retail. With 30+ years of experience spanning tech, retail, and academia, Matt joins us to explore how artificial intelligence is reshaping everything from merchandising strategies to classroom curriculum. We dive into: 🧠 How business leaders can build real AI fluency — no PhD required 📊 The playbook Matt built at Google to help CFOs evaluate digital investments 🏬 How retailers are using AI to drive margins, improve customer experience, and future-proof their operations 🎓 What the next generation of AI talent needs to succeed 💡 Why AI isn't just about automation — it's about acceleration Whether you're leading a team, teaching one, or just trying to keep up, this episode breaks down the real intersection of AI, leadership, and business growth. 🎧 Subscribe to Branching Out for more conversations at the edge of marketing, measurement, and innovation. AI in business artificial intelligence in retail marketing AI strategy CFO digital transformation AI podcast Matt Seitz AI Hub Google retail AI AI leadership AI transformation future of AI AI in higher education Branching Out podcast digital investment ROI AI education marketing analytics AI

🎧 Holiday Listening: Episode 17, Part 1: The Human Algorithm: How Sameer Modha Measures What Really Matters

Between Christmas and New Year’s is a rare moment.

No meetings. Fewer notifications. More thinking.

In Part 1 of Matt Butler's conversation with Sameer Modha, we talk about career journeys, the philosophy of data and marketing, why measurement breaks down, and what honesty actually means when business impact is on the line.

This is a long conversation by design.

Save it for a walk. A drive. A quiet morning.

#BranchingOutPodcast #Measurement #Podcast