We conclude our miniseries OF GOD AND COUNTRY with professor of Religion and the Arts at Belmont University and author of WE BECOME WHAT WE NORMALIZE: Dr. David Dark. His books include EVERYDAY APOCALYPSE: THE SACRED REVEALED IN RADIOHEAD, THE SIMPSONS, AND OTHER POP CULTURE ICONS, and LIFE’S TOO SHORT TO PRETEND YOU’RE NOT RELIGIOUS.

His latest book, WE BECOME WHAT WE NORMALIZE: WHAT WE OWE EACH OTHER IN WORLDS THAT DEMAND OUR SILENCE, is available in audio and hard-cover from Broadleaf Books, and his “Dark Matters” Substack is at daviddark.substack.com.

Charlie Sykes is a rarity: Decent, Wisconsin-nice, smiling, gracious, man of integrity in an often transactional profession. He was raised in a liberal, non-religious household, but became a Catholic and a Republican. He's still a Catholic, but no longer a Republican, though still a conservative. A journalist and radio host in Wisconsin for 40 years, and the bestselling author of nine books including 2017’s HOW THE RIGHT LOST ITS MIND. In 2019, Charlie co-founded The Bulwark news site, with the motto “Country Over Party.” He hosted its flagship podcast until, in 2025, he started his own substack newsletter, TO THE CONTRARY, with the motto “You are not the crazy ones.” On it, Charlie publishes solo commentaries and interviews politicos and journalists.

As part of our miniseries OF GOD AND COUNTRY, we speak with author, podcaster and journalist for THE ATLANTIC, David Frum. David served as a presidential speechwriter for George W. Bush, has authored 10 books, and now hosts THE DAVID FRUM SHOW and writes for The Atlantic. We’re discussing how both America and classic conservative David have shifted since Donald Trump took over the Oval Office in 2017.

We also discuss where the American experiment goes from here, whether Americans still value dignity from their elected leaders, and how David’s childhood in 1960’s Canada shaped his understanding of global politics.