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  • How Speed, Iteration & Being Better Than a Coin Toss Drives Billion-Dollar Outcomes - Marty Ringlein

    How Speed, Iteration & Being Better Than a Coin Toss Drives Billion-Dollar Outcomes - Marty Ringlein
    Jun 26 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization Podcast, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo sit down with Marty Ringlein, CEO and Co-founder of Agree.com, General Partner at Adventure Fund and Adjunct Professor at Northwestern University to discuss the realities of building startups across multiple technology waves from mobile and social media to today's AI revolution. Marty shares lessons learned as a founder, investor, professor, and product leader, revealing how great teams are built, why curiosity beats certainty, and how unconventional thinking creates breakthrough companies.Marty Ringlein is a six-time founder with five successful exits, the first Design Manager at Twitter, a former Presidential Innovation Fellow at the White House, and a General Partner at Adventure Fund. He studied under IDEO founder David Kelley, teaches emerging technologies at Northwestern University. With experience spanning startups, acquisitions, venture investing, product design, and emerging technologies, Marty has spent more than two decades helping shape the future of software and digital products.Expect to Learn:- Why great founders build for the future while solving today's problems- How to spot inevitable technology shifts before they become obvious- The role design thinking plays in building successful products and teams- Why trust matters more than technical expertise in leadership- How unconventional marketing creates outsized results- The hiring mistakes that derail startup teams early- Why curiosity and challenging mental models drive innovationTimestamps:00:00 – Teaser00:55 – Introduction of Marty Ringlein02:01 – From Military Brat to Serial Founder03:07 – Why Keep Building After Five Exits?04:18 – Spotting Technology Shifts Before Everyone Else08:31 – Leading Technical Teams Without Being the Deepest Engineer16:01 – The Agree.com Growth Strategy19:45 – Marketing by Solving Problems Others Ignore24:10 – Building Startup Teams That Actually Work26:48 – Creating Culture Through Big Ideas and Weird Conversations32:42 – The Biggest Mistakes Founders Make When Hiring Engineers37:16 – What Marty Still Hasn't Figured Out39:03 – Final Thoughts📱 Follow the Guest Marty Ringlein:👉LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martymadrid/👉Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martymadrid/📱 Follow the Guest’s Company:👉Company LinkedIn:- Agree.com: https://www.linkedin.com/company/agreehq/- Adventure Fund: https://www.linkedin.com/company/adventurefund/- Northwestern University: https://www.linkedin.com/school/northwestern-university/👉Company Website:- Agree.com: https://agree.com/- Adventure Fund: https://www.adventure.fund/- Northwestern University: https://www.northwestern.edu/👉Company Instagram:- Agree.com: https://www.instagram.com/agree.to.agree/- Northwestern University: https://instagram.com/northwesternu📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/👉 Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@holonic👉 Instagram: https://www.tiktok.com/@holonic📱 Follow The Podcast:👉Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg1W9it4iJByADOiZTet0RA👉Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3wHRfjI84ZxPRcENynJmyK?si=101cc3baf20d4b1c👉 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dark-arts-of-the-team-optimization/id1858255862
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    40 Min.
  • How Team Culture Beats Strategy and Makes Top Talent Reject High Salaries with Josh Carroll

    How Team Culture Beats Strategy and Makes Top Talent Reject High Salaries with Josh Carroll
    Jun 22 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo sit down with Josh Carroll, the Vice President of Engineering at Skylight to discuss why great cultures consistently outperform great strategies over the long term. Josh shares lessons learned from scaling engineering teams, hiring in the age of AI, fostering trust-based environments, and maintaining company culture through rapid growth. From identifying top talent beyond polished resumes to creating teams that thrive on autonomy, ownership, and accountability, this conversation offers practical insights for engineering leaders, founders, and hiring managers navigating today's evolving technology landscape.With leadership experience spanning high-growth startups and consumer technology companies, Josh has built a reputation for developing strong engineering cultures, scaling teams effectively, and prioritizing people-first leadership. His philosophy centers on trust, autonomy, and creating environments where talented individuals can do their best work.Expect to Learn- Why culture often outperforms strategy in scaling organizations- The difference between a "nice" culture and a high-performance culture- How trust becomes the foundation of effective engineering teams- Practical hiring strategies for identifying great talent beyond resumes- How AI is transforming recruiting, interviewing, and engineering workflows- Common culture challenges that emerge during rapid company growth- How Skylight maintains its values while scaling from startup to growth-stage companyTimestamps00:00 - Teaser01:13 - Introduction02:16 - Why Culture Outperforms Strategy in the Long Run04:29 - The Three-Legged Stool of Successful Companies09:20 - Building an Interview Process That Reveals the Real Candidate16:17 - Creating Teams Filled With High-Ownership Contributors16:47 - Avoiding the Trap of Hiring Great Interviewers17:45 - Trust vs. Niceness: What Actually Creates High Performance21:05 - Protecting Company Culture During Rapid Growth31:42 - Recruiting Through the Noise of AI-Generated Applications38:40 - Exciting Product Innovations and What's Next at Skylight44:17 - Final Thoughts and Why Families Are Embracing Skylight📱 Follow the Guest Josh Carroll:👉LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-carroll-83637912/👉Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/skylight-frame?👉Company Website: https://myskylight.com/👉Company Instagram: https://instagram.com/myskylight📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/👉 Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@holonic👉 Instagram: https://www.tiktok.com/@holonic📱 Follow The Podcast:👉Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg1W9it4iJByADOiZTet0RA👉Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3wHRfjI84ZxPRcENynJmyK?si=101cc3baf20d4b1c👉 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dark-arts-of-the-team-optimization/id1858255862
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    45 Min.
  • We Never Hire Traditionally and Built a Remote Team while AI Rewrites Coding Jobs with Samuel Colvin

    We Never Hire Traditionally and Built a Remote Team while AI Rewrites Coding Jobs with Samuel Colvin
    Jun 12 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo talk with Samuel Colvin, Founder at Pydantic and Director at TutorCruncher about how a side project became core infrastructure for the modern AI stack. He breaks down his unconventional hiring strategy using open source, why frustration drives product innovation, and how AI is fundamentally changing the role of software engineers. The conversation also explores remote-first culture, team dynamics, and what happens when developers stop writing code and start managing AI agents instead.Samuel Colvin is one of the most widely used Python libraries, with hundreds of millions of downloads every month. He turned it from a solo project into a Sequoia-backed company building tools across AI, observability, and developer infrastructure while hiring many of his team directly from open source contributors.Expect To Learn:- How Pydantic scaled into critical AI infrastructure - Why hiring from open source beats traditional recruiting - How AI is changing the role of software engineers - The benefits of remote-first teams at scale - Why frustration is the best signal for building productTimestamps:[00:00] - Teaser[01:14] - Introduction[02:32] - Pydantic’s growth and scale[03:44] - The 2022 inflection point[06:52] - Building from frustration[08:35] - Hiring through open source[11:36] - Trial-based hiring approach[12:39] - Remote-first strategy[18:05] - Building culture in remote teams[22:46] - AI replacing most code writing[24:11] - Smaller teams, bigger ownership[31:24] - Open source monetization challenges[39:29] - What still drives Samuel today📱 Follow the Guest Samuel Colvin:👉LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samuel-colvin/👉Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/samuelcolvin?👉Website: https://scolvin.com/ 👉X: https://x.com/samuelcolvin 📱 Follow the Guest Samuel Colvin’s Companies:👉LinkedIn - Pydantic: https://www.linkedin.com/company/pydantic/ 👉Website - Pydantic: https://pydantic.dev/ 👉Instagram - Pydantic: https://www.instagram.com/pydantic.dev/ 👉LinkedIn - TutorCruncher: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tutorcruncher/ 👉Instagram - TutorCruncher: https://www.instagram.com/tutorcruncher?👉Website - TutorCruncher: https://tutorcruncher.com/ 👉Facebook - TutorCruncher: https://www.facebook.com/TutorCruncher 📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/ 📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/
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    41 Min.
  • Why CTOs Fail in the Boardroom for Engineers to Turn Technical Work Into Strategy With Rob Seolas

    Why CTOs Fail in the Boardroom for Engineers to Turn Technical Work Into Strategy With Rob Seolas
    May 29 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization Podcast, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo talk with Robert Seolas, Certified Executive Team Coach at Petra Coach, Senior Advisory Consultant at Gears Sports, Founder & Advisor at Motrix and Co-Founder & Board Member at ObservePoint, about the gap between technical expertise and strategic influence. The conversation explores how engineers and technical leaders can move beyond being “right” to being effective, by developing emotional intelligence, mastering storytelling, and translating technical work into business value.Robert Seolas is a seasoned entrepreneur and leadership advisor with over 20 years of experience operating in high-stakes business environments. As the co-founder of ObservePoint, he scaled the company to over $15M ARR, raised venture funding, and worked closely with enterprise clients. Rob focuses on coaching leaders, especially technical leaders on how to bridge the gap between deep technical thinking and executive-level communication.Expect To Learn:The difference between IQ and EQ in engineering leadershipWhy being technically correct can still lead to failureHow to translate technical work into strategic business impactThe role of storytelling in influencing executives and boardsCommon mistakes engineers make in board meetingsHow to build executive presence without faking itTimestamps:[00:00] - Teaser[01:09] - Intro & guest background[04:18] - IQ vs EQ in engineering leadership[07:36] - Translating technical work for the boardroom[10:14] - Turning technical debt into a compelling narrative[14:04] - Why storytelling is essential for leaders[17:04] - Building executive presence as an introvert[22:22] - Coaching engineers into high performers[25:54] - Common boardroom mistakes (and how to avoid them)[34:46] - Why coaching accelerates growth[35:40] - Closing Thoughts📱 Follow the Guest Robert Seolas:👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertseolas/👉 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rseolas/Company LinkedIn:- Petra Coach: https://www.linkedin.com/company/petra-coach/- Gears Sports: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gears-sports/- ObservePoint: https://www.linkedin.com/company/observepoint/Company Website:- Petra Coach: https://petracoach.com/- Gears Sports: https://www.gearssports.com/- ObservePoint: https://www.observepoint.com/Company Instagram:- Petra Coach: https://www.instagram.com/petra_coach/- Gears Sports: https://www.instagram.com/gears.sports/- ObservePoint: https://www.instagram.com/observepoint📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/
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    40 Min.
  • How Engineering Teams Fail Without Trust, Leadership and Psychological Safety with Tom Holt

    How Engineering Teams Fail Without Trust, Leadership and Psychological Safety with Tom Holt
    May 22 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization Podcast, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo talk with Tom Holt, Principal Consultant & Founder of OtterWorks Consulting, Adjunct Instructor of Data Analytics & Python at Savvy Coders and Sr. Delivery Consultant at Accelerance, to explore what it really takes to build high-performing engineering teams across startups and distributed environments. Tom brings over 40 years of software experience, including two decades leading distributed teams across the US, China, and Latin America.The conversation moves from hands-on coding to leadership philosophy, focusing on how engineers become multipliers, why psychological safety matters, and how trust shapes everything from estimation to execution. At its core, this episode is about shifting from building software to building the conditions for people to build software well.Expect to Learn- Why engineering leadership is about multiplying team impact, not just managing work- How to help engineers connect their day-to-day coding to real user outcomes- What psychological safety looks like in high-performing engineering teams- Why bad news needs to travel early, especially around estimates and deadlines- How team structure, communication, and process need to evolve as organizations scaleTimestamps[00:00:00] – Teaser[00:01:09] – Introduction to Tom Holt[00:02:20] – From coding to leadership[00:05:47] – Helping engineers “look up” from code[00:10:53] – Building environments that sustain motivation[00:15:55] – Why bad news must travel fast[00:19:42] – Death march projects and unrealistic deadlines[00:20:02] – Estimation, ownership, and sustainable pace[00:28:42] – Scaling teams and what breaks first[00:31:23] – Right-sizing process vs. over-process[00:39:34] – Leading distributed teams globally[00:42:09] – Body, mind, and performance in knowledge work[00:48:17] – Closing thoughts📱 Follow the Guest Tom Holt:👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomholtstl/Company LinkedIn:- OtterWorks Consulting: https://www.linkedin.com/company/otterworks-consulting/- Savvy Coders: https://www.linkedin.com/school/savvy-coders/- Accelerance: https://www.linkedin.com/company/accelerance-inc/Company Website:- OtterWorks Consulting: https://www.otterworksllc.com/- Savvy Coders: https://savvycoders.com/- Accelerance: https://www.accelerance.com/Company Instagram:- Savvy Coders: https://www.instagram.com/savvy_coders- Accelerance: https://www.instagram.com/accelerance/?hl=en📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/
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    50 Min.
  • AI Strategy Gap Between Business Leaders and Engineers Breaking Companies with Craig Heile

    AI Strategy Gap Between Business Leaders and Engineers Breaking Companies with Craig Heile
    May 15 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization Podcast, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo talk with Craig Heile, Head of GTM AI Solutions at Ascend AI Labs, also the Co-founder and Advisor at Launch GTM. With AI technology advancing at an unprecedented pace, there is often a significant gap between the expectations of business leaders and the technical capabilities of engineers. Craig shares his expertise on how to bridge this gap, ensuring that AI can be effectively integrated into business operations to create lasting value.From understanding AI’s transformative potential to addressing fears among engineers about job displacement, this conversation covers the strategic and operational challenges companies face as they adapt to a rapidly changing technological landscape. Craig also discusses how engineers can evolve into internal advisors, working alongside business teams to optimize workflows and drive innovation.Expect to Learn:- The challenges business owners face when communicating AI needs to engineers.- How to align business strategies with AI integration.- Insights into the evolving role of engineers and AI in organizations.- Practical steps for creating sustainable AI strategies in business.Timestamps:[00:00] - Teaser[01:29] - Introduction[03:00] - The Gap Between Business Owners and Engineers[07:10] - The AI Knowledge Gap[10:55] - Identifying Early Signs of AI Disconnect[13:30] - Managing Shadow AI in Organizations[15:26] - Engineers’ Fear of AI Integration[18:06] - The Changing Role of Middle Management[19:55] - Building a Durable AI Strategy[24:11] - Preparing for AI Transitions: What’s Next?[35:53] - Conclusion📱 Follow the Guest Craig Heile:👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-heile/Company LinkedIn:- Ascend AI Labs: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ascendailabs/- Launch GTM: https://www.linkedin.com/company/launchgtm/Company Website:- Ascend AI Labs: https://ascendlabs.ai/- Launch GTM: https://launchgtm.com/Company Instagram:- Ascend AI Labs: https://www.instagram.com/ascendlabs.ai📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/
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    32 Min.
  • AI Reliability in Legal Tech for Law Firms to Build Trustworthy Automation with Adam Paulisick

    AI Reliability in Legal Tech for Law Firms to Build Trustworthy Automation with Adam Paulisick
    May 8 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo talk with Adam Paulisick, Chief Executive Officer at Skilly, Distinguished Service Professor, Lead Instructor, and Occasional Founder of Executive Education at Carnegie Mellon University School of Computer Science. He is also Founder and maad Scientist at maad labs, Advisor of Sales and Product at ViralMoment and Advisor of Sales and Go-To-Market at BlastPoint. Adam brings a wealth of knowledge from his experience in AI, product entrepreneurship, and human-computer interaction. He is currently building Skilly, a company deploying AI agents that onboard and train employees in a human-like manner. In this engaging conversation, Adam dives into the challenges and opportunities that AI brings to teams, the dynamics of acquisitions, and how leaders can thrive in the fast-changing tech landscape.Adam Paulisick is a seasoned entrepreneur, having led three companies through successful acquisitions. With a background in AI, human-computer interaction, and entrepreneurship, Adam has also taught at Carnegie Mellon for over a decade. He’s passionate about blending technology with human interaction, and he's currently building Skilly AI agents that train and onboard employees. Adam's career has intersected various domains, from tech to psychology, providing him with a unique perspective on innovation, leadership, and team dynamics.Expect to Learn:- Insights into the effects of acquisitions on teams and the challenges of integrating human talent with AI. - How AI is reshaping job descriptions and team structures, and how curiosity and soft skills are more valuable than ever. - The importance of interdisciplinary thinking and collaboration in fostering innovation. - The role of AI in augmenting human capabilities and its impact on employee productivity and decision-making. - How personal routine and self-awareness play a crucial role in maintaining balance while navigating the entrepreneurial journey.Episode Breakdown with Timestamps:[00:00:00] – Teaser[00:01:24] – Adam’s experience with acquisitions.[00:05:28] – Distribution vs. differentiation.[00:07:19] – Integrating AI with humans.[00:11:12] – Proactive change management.[00:13:32] – Skilly’s “AI Fridays.”[00:21:05] – Job descriptions evolve with AI.[00:26:12] – Curiosity and soft skills matter.[00:30:08] – Empathy + AI = success.[00:41:02] – Skilly’s AI agents.[00:52:07] – AI enhances customer journeys.[00:52:46] – Adam’s routine and avoiding burnout.[00:58:25] – Conclusion📱 Follow Guest Adam Paulisick:👉LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulisick/ 👉Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/paulisick/ 👉Company LinkedIn:- Skilly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/skillyai/ - Carnegie Mellon University School of Computer Science: https://www.linkedin.com/school/cmuscs/ - maad labs: https://www.linkedin.com/company/maad-labs/ - ViralMoment: https://www.linkedin.com/company/viralmoment/ - BlastPoint: https://www.linkedin.com/company/blastpoint/ 👉Company Website: - Skilly: https://www.skillyai.com/ - Carnegie Mellon University School of Computer Science: https://www.scs.cmu.edu/ - maad labs: https://maadlabs.io/ - ViralMoment: https://viralmoment.com/ - BlastPoint: http://www.blastpoint.com/ 👉Company Instagram:- Skilly: https://www.instagram.com/skillyai/ - Carnegie Mellon University School of Computer Science: https://www.instagram.com/scsatcmu/ - maad labs: https://www.instagram.com/maadlabs/ - ViralMoment: https://www.instagram.com/getviralmoment/ 📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/ 📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/
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    59 Min.
  • How to Build Reliable AI Systems: When Hallucinations Are Inevitable with Justin Waltrip

    How to Build Reliable AI Systems: When Hallucinations Are Inevitable with Justin Waltrip
    May 1 2026
    In this episode of The Dark Arts of Team Optimization, hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo talk with Justin Waltrip, Co-founder & Data Scientist at SQUARY AI. Justin has been at the forefront of AI development since 2015, well before the current AI boom took hold. With a deep background in data science and machine learning, he has spent years building AI solutions that tackle complex problems in various industries. Justin focuses on leveraging AI to streamline and enhance the legal industry’s often cumbersome document review processes. Under his leadership, SQUARY AI is developing tools that help law firms and legal departments improve productivity, reduce time spent on manual tasks, and ensure more reliable, efficient outcomes. In this episode, Justin shares his journey, the challenges of building AI for legal tech, and how he and his team are rethinking how technology can support legal professionals.Expect to Learn:- Insights into the challenges of building AI for legal tech- The importance of testing in AI development- How AI tools can reduce tedious work for lawyers while maintaining high standards of accuracy and reliability- The evolving role of AI in the legal field and potential for future automationTimestamps:[00:00] - Teaser[01:13] - Introducing Justin Waltrip[02:15] - AI Engineering Challenges and Overlooked Disciplines[04:05] - Managing AI Unpredictability and Reliability[06:24] - Hallucinations in AI: Can They Be Eliminated?[08:42] - SQUARY AI's Pivot into Legal Tech[14:33] - Engineering for 100% Reliability[17:40] - Pushback from the Legal Industry on Efficiency Tools[23:12] - Managing a Small Startup Team[25:19] - Hiring for Culture and Vision Fit at SQUARY AI [30:58] - Navigating Investor Expectations and Growth[33:48] - Future Plans for SQUARY AI'S Product Development[38:19] - How to Learn More About SQUARY AI📱 Follow Guest Justin Waltrip:👉LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-waltrip-53082b17b/ 👉Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justin.waltrip8408?👉Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/squary-ai/ 👉Company Website: https://www.squary.ai/ 👉Company X: https://x.com/CognistX 📱 Follow the Hosts Kyle Johnson and Franz Aliquo:👉 Kyle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleclaytonjohnson/👉 Franz’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-aliquo/ 📱 Follow Holonic:👉 Website: https://www.becomeholonic.com/👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/becomeholonic/
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    39 Min.