QUICK SUMMARY What happens when the Church you love has also hurt you? For many Catholics, there's no safe space to hold both truths at once, until now. In this powerful bonus episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich talk with Paul Fahey, licensed counselor, catechist, and host of the Third Space Podcast, to unpack what spiritual abuse really looks like, why so many Catholics unknowingly surrender their freedom, and how genuine listening may be the most prophetic act the Church can offer right now.
IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE - Spiritual abuse — coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context — is far more widespread than most Catholics realize.
- Claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, or presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, are clear markers of spiritual coercion.
- The desire to surrender freedom to rules or authority is deeply human and easily exploited. Mature faith requires owning one's conscience.
- Using "the devil" as a scapegoat can itself become a mechanism of harm. True discernment leads to solidarity, not deflection.
- Success in ministry is not measured by numbers, but by whether someone experiences encounter, gains language for their experience, and knows they are not alone.
- The most prophetic gift Christians can offer today may simply be listening — without an agenda.
[00:00] — Introducing Paul Fahey Paul shares his background: eight years as a parish Director of Religious Education, husband and father of five, and now a licensed counselor in Michigan.
[01:30] — From Pope Francis Generation to The Third Space Paul co-founded the Pope Francis Generation Podcast with Dominic Dusa of Smart Catholics after unexpectedly leaving his parish job. As his work with abuse survivors deepened, he began noticing gaps between Pope Francis' teaching on human dignity and his governing decisions — prompting a full rebrand toward a podcast centered on Christ in the vulnerable and marginalized.
[06:00] — What Is "The Third Space"? Inspired by a conversation with mentor Monica Pope, Paul identified a void: survivors of Church harm are met either with Catholic defensiveness or with "why do you even stay?" The Third Space holds both — a place for people who want congruence between their experience of harm and their experience of good in the Church.
[07:45] — Who Is This Podcast For? Survivors of clerical sexual abuse, yes — but also the much broader category of spiritual abuse. Paul cites research from Dr. Lisa Oakley (UK) suggesting roughly 75% of Christians have experienced coercion or manipulation in their church communities. His audience is anyone harmed by the Church, and anyone with ears to hear the Gospel as told by those who've been hurt.
[10:00] — Why Podcasting? More than convenience — podcasting allows for live dialogue and spontaneous vulnerability that writing simply can't capture. Paul describes it as closer to leading RCIA or a small group than publishing an article.
[13:00] — Is the Church Doing Podcasting Well? A candid take on the lay-driven nature of Catholic media — and the troubling amount of spiritually harmful content circulating under the Catholic label. Bad Catholic content isn't poorly produced; it's content that misrepresents God, misrepresents the Church's teaching, and coerces consciences.
[16:30] — Defining Spiritual Abuse Paul walks through the core definition: a pattern of coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context, using spiritual authority to control others. Key markers include claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, or using religious fear to manipulate beha...
Chapters - (00:00:00) - Introducing Paul Fahey
- (00:01:30) - From Pope Francis Generation to The Third Space
- (00:06:00) - What Is "The Third Space"?
- (00:07:45) - Who Is This Podcast For?
- (00:10:00) - Why Podcasting?
- (00:13:00) - Is the Church Doing Podcasting Well
- (00:16:50) - Defining Spiritual Abuse
- (00:22:00) - The Appeal of Surrender
- (00:25:00) - Father John's "Fenced Playground" Story
- (00:28:00) - Spiritual Warfare, Fear, and the Devil as Scapegoat
- (00:39:30) - Scripture, Tradition, and Experience in Tension
- (00:43:00) - How Paul Measures Success
- (00:47:00) - "The Glory of God Is Man Fully Alive"
- (00:48:30) - What Surrender Looks Like in Paul's Life
- (00:51:00) - Is Spiritual Abuse Perennial or New?
- (00:55:30) - The Prophetic Act of Listening