• Episode 7: BONUS: What happened to acedia?
    Jan 22 2026
    Welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is Episode Seven: What happened to Acedia?Welcome back. So, this is episode seven. It is a bonus episode because we have, as I mentioned in the last episode, formally concluded our study of acedia, but there will be some bonus episodes because if you like me, [and] resonated with this topic, you might want to learn more. In wanting to learn more, you might be wondering whatever happened to acedia. You know, this is not a word that is part of our everyday vernacular, much like some of the other seven deadly sins [00:01:00] are, if you choose to talk about that, or you just might be wondering, why has it taking me till now to learn about acedia? Why did I never come across this until later in life?And that was something that really piqued my interest because it took me a while to learn about Acedia. So, this episode is for those diehard acedia enthusiasts who have to know the quote ‘end of the story.’ And to do so, we will be going back to one of our primary texts, The Noonday Devil, by Jean Charles Nault, and around page 96, he starts to tell the story of how this all came to be.So, the story starts with actually a Franciscan Friar William Ham Ockham, who lived around [00:02:00] 1300 to 1350 AD. If you know anything about Franciscan Friars, there are obviously a lot of very good people. Although I will say Friar Ockham was not the best person in the story we’re about to tell because he actually helped to influence the idea of acedia kind of falling out of favor, but I’m sure he was a great dude otherwise. So, we’re gonna cut him some slack.So Franciscan Friar William Ockham sparked kind of a quote ‘revolution,’ if you will, because at the time, he was countering the theological understanding of freedom, which up until that point had primarily been articulated by St. Thomas Aquinas. So Ockham [00:03:00] proposed a new concept of freedom, which essentially differed from Aquinas’s concept of freedom, and he called this new freedom concept, quote, the “liberty of indifference.” End quote.Jean Charles Nault describes this on page 96 as “human beings are totally indeterminate, totally indifferent with regard to good or evil’ end quote, and I said human beings, because again, a lot of these things just refer to ‘man,’ and I prefer to make it more gender neutral. So indeterminate, totally indifferent with regard to good or evil.Actually, this is how we largely conceive of freedom today. We see freedom as the idea that you can [00:04:00] choose between two contrary things. You have that choice. However, at the time, this was a bit of a quote ‘revolution,’ to what was considered a classical understanding of freedom, and that view, that classical understanding Jean Charles Nault describes as quote, “Freedom is the ability that human beings have an ability belonging jointly to the intellect and will to perform virtuous actions, good actions, excellent actions, perfect actions when he or she wants, and as he or she wants. Humankind’s freedom is therefore the capacity to accomplish good acts easily, joyously and lastingly. This freedom is defined by the attraction [00:05:00] of the good.” Okay, so let’s unpack that a little bit.In this more classical understanding of freedom, prior to Ockham, mostly delineated by Aquinas, the idea is that we have the freedom to do good. Okay, and we are attracted to doing that good innately as human beings. How is it that we have that innately? Well, we believe that we are human beings with a soul, and we’re not simply animals who kind of just act on impulse and their basic needs. Right?But Ockham kind of deviated from all of this because he made freedom live in the moment prior [00:06:00] to our intellect and will. So, man or woman are no longer attracted to the good, as Aquinas had said. Instead, they kind of have a indifference to good and evil.Okay, so total indifference and it’s that time period before the intellect and will kick in. Ockham, being a Franciscan friar, being a religious person, was still somewhat concerned with people doing good things. Okay? He wasn’t like a relativist, let’s just say. But he believed there had to be some sort of an external element or something extrinsic, which points human beings to the good, and he described that as the law, and it points to [00:07:00] what the good action might be.Around that time, this was really kind of picking up steam and the idea that what is good is defined by obedience to the law. On page 97, Jean Charles Nault points out that eventually this leads to this concept of legalism, and legalism is quote, “The law alone is the criterion for good.”So, because this is externally motivated, human beings no longer have what Aquinas called, quote “natural inclinations.” And those natural inclinations were dependent upon really the ...
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    37 Min.
  • Episode 6: Overcoming Acedia - Faithful Perseverance and Joy
    Jan 3 2026
    Christina Gebel: Welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is episode six, Overcoming Acedia.Welcome. So, you might be thinking, finally, we have gotten to the point where we are actually sun-setting our discussion about acedia and talking about how to actually overcome it, and this whole time, just to recap, we’ve been discussing how acedia shows up for us, how it shows up in the world, [00:01:00] and how it’s mainly driven by the false spirit and the false spirit wanting to get us off track from doing the most good in the world and from living out our true calling.The way that we can push back against all the things that we’ve been talking about is by actually overcoming acedia. Before we begin. If you’re still a little bit fuzzy on what acedia is and you’ve been following along, just please know that’s okay, and it takes time, like I’ve said in previous episodes, to ingest all of this and wrap your mind around it.Maybe you understand it a little bit on the personal level and maybe not as much on the society level. That’s all okay. And for that reason, because it can be a difficult topic to grasp, I have a [00:02:00] special treat for you, and that is as a bonus to the conclusion of the acedia series on Moderate Catholic. I will be including an adaptation of the Ignatian examine, and when I say Examen, E-X-A-M-E-N.So, for those of you who are familiar, the Examen is a tool in Ignatian spirituality that many Jesuits do and encourage others to do every single day. It’s usually part of the Spiritual Exercises. It’s kind of like the culmination, if you will, of those Exercises. And it’s an inventory of your day where you look back to everything you did, people you saw what you read, watched, who you interacted with, and you pay special attention to how the Spirit is moving within you that day.And this is very [00:03:00] Ignatian because Ignatius believes that we can seek God and all of the ordinary experiences of life. So, by reviewing our day as a part of our daily prayer, we can actually see where God is at work. So, notice that I use the phrase that the Examen helps us understand where the Spirit is moving throughout the day. In the Examen that I’m gonna include as a bonus to this series, it’s also gonna help us understand where the false spirit might be moving, and in that sense, how acedia has shown up throughout our day. So, stay tuned. This will be a great bonus for all of you, and hopefully something that you can play for yourself as you’re reflecting in daily prayer.So, once you find the acedia in your life day to [00:04:00] day, you will likely want to overcome it, and that’s where the topic today comes in. So, I’m going to start the topic with a huge spoiler. If you overcome acedia, you will know that you’ve overcome it because there is a great gift awaiting you on the other side.So that’s the spoiler, and I’m even gonna tell you what that gift is. But first we’re gonna point back to Evagrius, our desert monk, our main dude who describes the feeling of overcoming acedia as a quote, “state of peace and an ineffable joy ensues in the soul after the struggle.” When I read that, I was like, well, I would like a state of peace and ineffable joy, so obviously it’s very attractive.I [00:05:00] did actually experience some of this once I simply named acedia. I talked about that in the earliest episodes - I believe episode two - where just knowing what was going on with me spiritually and being able to point to it was peace-giving for me. It brought me some relief. If just naming it can give you that positive emotion like it did for me, imagine what overcoming it could feel like.Today we’re gonna talk about that and we’ll use the same two texts that I’ve been referring to all along The Noonday Devil by Jean Charles Nault and Acedia and Me by Kathleen Norris. And because we’re nearing the end of this acedia series, you might be thinking, if you’ve hung around this long, I’d really like to learn more about this acedia thing, as I mentioned [00:06:00] earlier, I would recommend starting with Kathleen Norris’s book, Acedia and Me the New York Times bestseller, because it is a lot more accessibly written. But if you want a good theological itch and you’re kind of used to scratching theological itches, then I would say The Noonday Devil is another great option.Okay, so let’s dive in and start with where Jean Charles Nault takes us and the first remedy that he starts to talk about on page 85 is meditating on the Incarnation.So Incarnation, again, is God becoming human in Jesus Christ. He references Saint Thomas Aquinas a lot and [00:07:00] in becoming human, he talks about God actually built a bridge between the abyss of the divine and human nature and God, in that sense, through Jesus acted as a bridge maker. And actually that’s what the word ...
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    48 Min.
  • Episode 5: Acedia & Interreligious Dialogue
    Dec 23 2025

    In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Balu Natarajan to discuss the interreligious aspects of acedia, particularly as it relates to Hinduism. Balu Natarajan identifies as friend, husband, father, son, educator, and lifelong learner. By profession, practicing physician and Chief Medical Officer, maintaining board certifications in internal medicine, sports medicine, and hospice + palliative medicine.



    This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit christinagebel.substack.com
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    56 Min.
  • Episode 4: Acedia & the Signs of the Times - continued
    Dec 3 2025
    [00:00:00] Welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is Episode Four: Acedia and the Signs of the Times Continued - Why acedia makes perfect sense right now. So welcome back to our podcast. So far, we have discussed a lot about acedia, including where it shows up for us personally, its symptoms and its manifestations.And last time in episode three, we something called the Signs of the Times in Catholicism. And if you remember from episode three, the Signs of the Times are essentially our way of looking at what’s happening out in the world and interpreting it in the light of the Gospel.I wanted to do a two-parter, and this is [00:01:00] part two on the Signs of the Times because I think it takes a little bit to sink in, and I hope that you will get more of that in this episode.So why are we talking about acedia, and the Signs of the Times? Or in other words, why should we care about this intersection specifically? We talked about, early on in this series, acedia manifesting on a personal level and how that shows up acedia manifesting on a societal level is how the Signs of the Times come to be.I want to offer a reason to go to the societal level, even though acedia is a deeply personal spiritual topic. And that is because the Signs of the Times have really been with us throughout all of human history. The Signs [00:02:00] of the Times, even though it’s a Vatican II-type phrase, is really about how do we look out into the world and see a lot of suffering and injustice and make sense of that in light of our faith.When I go about the world today, which is rampant with injustice, I personally can feel really overwhelmed and really powerless. And this intersection of acedia and the Signs of the Times actually helps me to make a little bit of sense of it, although certainly not all of it does make sense. But also, to temper my reaction in the wider arc of human history. Something I like to tell myself is that we really aren’t that special right now. A lot of times you hear people say, [00:03:00] oh my gosh, this is the worst it’s ever been, or never in my lifetime can I remember a time when we’re so divided and it’s been this terrible. And certainly, that could be true, especially in the course of a lifetime. But I think what’s on the flip side of that type of thinking is this idea that we are perhaps in the worst part of human history, or we’re dealing with the worst humans that have ever existed.And that can lead to a lot of hopelessness and also a lot of despair. And as Christians, we have to push through that and get to what we are meant to do and called to do in light of the teachings of Jesus Christ. So, it helps us to make sense of what we’re seeing, to know that the Signs of the Times have always been with us and so has our faith [00:04:00] and we’re alive here and now in this particular moment using those tools to try to navigate all of this and live as Christ would intend us to live.It also helps, I think, to know how the false spirit, or in other words, the devil, or in other words, evil, operates in the world. I hear a lot of people saying right now, I just can’t believe the amount of good people that are doing awful things or supporting awful things, and again, it’s hard to make sense of that as Christians, especially people who say they’re Christians.But when you look at it through the lens of acedia and the false spirit, the goal of the false spirit is to get as many people off track as possible, and that is how acedia operates on a [00:05:00] larger scale. So, when I see all these things happening and I see otherwise good people supporting really bad things, I tend to not let myself drown in despair.Although I would be lying if I said I had succeeded in that at times, but I instead try to think about how is this false spirit moving in this and what does the false spirit want us to do? It helps me to see humanity really struggling with evil, and that makes it more manageable in my brain more towards action as opposed to despair.So just as a recap, we know the false spirit has two goals: one, to keep us from living out our God-given vocation, and two, from allowing us to do the most right that we [00:06:00] can do in the world.And when you think of it that way, in the framework of those two goals, what we’re seeing right now is a lot of people who are straying from their God-given vocation and a lot of people who are not living into the most right or justice that they can do in the world.Think about the world that we would live in: Everybody living into their God-given vocation, trying to do good. We would live in a very different world than what we find ourselves right now. That’s where we’re heading, right? That’s the Kingdom. That’s heaven. That’s the world where everybody finally gets it right and we live in this peace and harmony and love of God. We as ...
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    48 Min.
  • Episode 3: Acedia & the Signs of the Times
    Oct 27 2025
    [00:00:00] Welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is episode three, Acedia and the Signs of the Times.So, if you’ve been following along these first two episodes, you’ll know that we’re here to talk about acedia. Acedia is, in brief, what used to be one of the seven deadly sins, but got lumped in with sloth and has kind of fallen out of favor of our modern spiritual discourse. In episode one, I talked a lot about how I knew that acedia was showing up in my life, but I didn’t quite know what the name [of it] was yet.And in episode two, I start to describe acedia using two [00:01:00] books, The Noonday Devil by Jean Charles Nault and another one called Acedia and Me by Kathleen Norris. You may have been tuning in so far and thought a lot about the episodes, I’m sure, and still be wondering what is acedia. I wanted to pause before we get to today’s topic and just say that if you aren’t sure what acedia is still, that is okay.It takes a while to wrap your head around it. And really, it’s goals and its symptoms and how it moves in the world is actually quite simple. But at least, for me, getting to naming it and understanding it was a little more complex. So, I just wanna tell you, if you’re [00:02:00] like, is she gonna keep talking about that acedia thing? Because I’m thoroughly lost. The answer is yes for now. I’m gonna keep talking about the acedia thing, and it’s totally okay if you’re lost.I was thinking this week a little bit about how to better describe acedia, just in my own words, and I thought a lot about something we discussed in episode two, which was how is acedia different from depression?I think depression is something that we all either have experienced or maybe we have experienced it by proxy as showing up in someone’s life whom we love. So I wanna talk a little bit about that difference there, because I think most people have a fair enough understanding of depression, and that can be a launching point to understand more [00:03:00] about acedia. The way that I would describe it is if you were to exist in the world, and you were to exist free of depression, let’s just say, normal mental health, depression has been treated.Maybe it’s not even an issue, maybe it never was, and yet you still feel something that is nagging at you or seems to bother you, but you can’t quite figure out why, because nothing seems apparently wrong. That even if you have the most sound, mental health at that point in your life or maybe your entire life, if you’re really lucky, you still feel this unsettledness in your spirit.And that’s where I think depression and [00:04:00] acedia can start to diverge is, as I explained in episode two, depression can be a very true clinical issue that has clinical therapies and medications designed to overcome it, thank God. But acedia creeps into the realm of spirituality, and it affects our spirit.While it might show up looking like what we’re familiar with as signs of depression, it really at its root comes from the depression of the spirit, if you will. I hope that helps you to delineate a little bit better, and it will begin to make more sense as we go along.The second thing I wanna talk about, and I did mention a little bit before, is the false spirit. So the false spirit is [00:05:00] what I will refer to as the devil. I think I might have explained that I’m not usually a person that goes around talking about the devil. So, the false spirit for me is a much more palatable version of how to talk about it. I like the phrase, the false spirit, which comes from St. Ignatius of Loyola because it literally describes what I think, evil or the devil is the spirit, which is good, obviously, but the false spirit, which is kind of the antithesis of the good spirit, right?So, I wanna talk about the false spirit a lot in the next two episodes, including today and to understand and try to make sense of what’s going on right now, which is completely overwhelming if you’ve been following along [00:06:00] in the world. We need to understand how evil is at work through a spiritual lens. The false spirit, in other words, the devil, is acting in the world. Even if you’re not okay with the phrase, the false spirit or the devil, you can just call it evil, whatever spiritual tradition you come from, there probably is some conception of evil.So how does the false spirit operate, especially today, and I’d like to give you two goals that it has. The first goal of the false spirit is to keep us from living our God given vocation. And when I say vocation, I don’t necessarily mean like becoming a nun or becoming a firefighter. I really just mean what is it [00:07:00] that you are meant to do in this world? You specifically, a beloved child of God. Some people might call that, you know, living your best self, living your best life, living into God’s ...
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    48 Min.
  • Episode 2: Naming Acedia - What is it?
    Sep 11 2025
    Episode 2 Transcript (includes links for further reading)[00:00:00] Okay, welcome to the Moderate Catholic, where we discuss topics that deepen faith and inspire action. I am your host, Christina Gebel, and this is episode two. So, it's been a little bit since episode one. I know that I left y'all on kind of a cliffhanger of sorts. Life has really been life’n lately, so I haven't had time to record the next episode, but I've been thinking a lot about it and it's been highly anticipated.So, my sincere apologies for leaving you for such a long time and also on such a cliffhanger, and I hope that you will enjoy this episode that we have today. So, if you remember from the very first episode, what I had been talking about is essentially what [00:01:00] led me to do spiritual direction, namely the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola with my spiritual director. And that was around a six-month process where we very slowly went through those exercises, and I was trying to gain some insight into how I was feeling, which was somewhat new to me, I guess you could say, in the sense that I hadn't quite felt that way before.And while it was perhaps a close cousin of other feelings I had had in the past, like maybe depression, it was somewhat different. And the way that I described it in episode one, in telling other people about it, was that I [00:02:00] think I had a spiritual problem that needed to be solved as opposed to a medical problem or a mental health problem, of which I was really familiar with up until that point in my life.So. I laid out that whole scene and promised to tell you what I would eventually come to know that it is, and that's what we're gonna focus on today. So today we are going to name it, and we are going to do that in the next episodes where we really unpack what it is. It's nature. And ultimately how to overcome it.I do wanna mention that most of my research around this not only came from my conversations in spiritual direction with Becky Eldredge, but also from [00:03:00] two texts that I read subsequently to learn more about it. And I'd like to share those with you because one, you might be interested in reading them and two, I want to give credit to the authors that wrote them and they have informed me of so much of its history and how it can manifest in our lives.So the first text that I wanna draw to your attention, and we will be going over these in multiple episodes, is called The Noonday Devil: Acedia and the Unnamed Evil of our Times. So that's kind of a bit of a foreboding, somewhat, Uh, interesting title. It talks about the devil. It talks about evil. And if you know me, and you know how I talk about spirituality, I don't tend to bring up those two things [00:04:00] frequently. I prefer to use a different word for the devil, which is one that I learned during spiritual direction, which is the False Spirit, and that's something that St. Ignatius kind of coined, if you will.And this text is written by Jean Charles Nault. Nault is spelled N-A-U-L-T, and he is with the Order of St. Benedict, (Benedict is a saint in the Catholic church) and he resides at the Abbott of Saint-Wandrille. And if you're noticing my very poor French accent that I've tried to salvage from my time in high school, though I doubt it was ever actually there, he resides in France. And [00:05:00] he is a monk there at this Benedictine Abbey in Normandy, France.His book is one that I read, actually second after the next one I'll tell you about, and I will say it is a little more academic in its writing, so. I would not consider it to be kind of an entry level read to this topic. It is definitely a lot more theological, and also just academic in its approach to the topic, but it is really excellent. So if you're up for that, definitely check it out.The second book that I wanna bring to your attention, and the first one I read. At the recommendation of Becky while I was going through direction is actually a New York Times bestseller, so that bodes well, and it is called Acedia [00:06:00] and Me: A Marriage, Monk’s, and Writer's Life. And that author is Kathleen Norris. And she is an American poet and essayist. She currently is Episcopalian, so that's one denomination of Christianity within the United States, but she also became what's called a Benedictine Oblate at the Assumption Abbey in North Dakota, which sounds like a really intriguing place to visit.A Benedictine Oblate is essentially when a layperson, and by layperson we mean somebody who's not a priest or an ordained religious person, comes to an order like the Order of St. Benedict and says, I'm not going to become a monk [00:07:00] or an ordained follower of this St. Benedictine order, if you will, but I'm going to remain a lay person, and I want to live my life in accordance with the values and teachings of this saint. So, she is essentially a lay person like me and you. I would imagine not many of the people listening are priests or ...
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    50 Min.
  • The Moderate Catholic: Inaugural Episode
    Jun 23 2025
    Welcome to the very first Podcast Episode of The Moderate Catholic! Launching this has been a (good) itch in my side for quite a long time now, and it feels great to finally “scratch” the surface of podcasting. I am including the transcript below for your listening/viewing ease. Thank you for supporting me in this big step. ~ Christina Episode 1 Transcript (includes links for further reading)Hello, my name is Christina Gebel, and I am with the Moderate Catholic. This is our first episode of the Moderate Catholic, and I'm very happy that you're here. So today I would like to tell you a little bit more about myself, my background, what we hope to do here in our time, listening to the Moderate Catholic, and discussing the topics as well as what we're gonna focus on in the next episodes.So, a little bit about me. I am a public health professional, specifically maternal and child health, and have been doing that [00:01:00] for about 11 years now. And in addition to that formal training, I have also been a doula for about 14 years now .But that's actually not the expertise that I am bringing to this podcast at the outset.I also have a deep love for spirituality and also my Catholic faith. So much so that I majored in theology and undergrad, and within theology, I focused a lot on ethics, particularly sexual ethics. And just developed a really deep love of the Catholic Church and many of the documents it's written, and I started to get more and more into social justice and particularly Catholic social teaching.Some of the main figures out [00:02:00] there in Catholicism regarding social justice became heroes of mine, and I went on to try to live my life in a really intentional way.So fast forward to today, which is a lot of years between today and undergrad, but I have remained in my Catholic faith, and one thing that has been a little bit of a challenge to me throughout these years post undergrad has been finding spaces where I can get together with like-minded Catholics and discuss not only my own thoughts and feelings, but also our faith and how it relates to the world that we're in. I noticed oftentimes that as I was moving from city to city and quote unquote [00:03:00] church shopping, which if you're not familiar with the phrase “church shopping,” it's when you go around to a bunch of parishes and try to figure out which one you feel most at home with, which resonates with a lot of your interest and values.And granted, it's all Catholic, but for those who are Catholic and listening, you might know that some parishes have, let's say, a take on what to focus on within Catholicism. And so for me, the thing that was important to me in selecting a parish throughout these years since undergrad has been where can I find people that want to be in and of this world and also want to be Catholic and want to lead with compassion and social justice, and always putting vulnerable populations in mind whenever we're [00:04:00] making decisions that could affect them.What I found is that, in every major city I've lived in so far, which is outside of where I grew up in Cincinnati…I've lived in St. Louis, Chicago, Boston, and now Durham. I found that, there are certainly just your run of the mill Catholic parishes with, let's say in aging population that aren't as active, but just go along, have Mass, have the sacraments, have a ladies' auxiliary function that sells, baked goods, a fish fry, all the good things that we remember, or at least I do from childhood.But there's also some really traditional leaning parishes, and those seem to be. Very popular right now and growing in number. Those tend to be a [00:05:00] little more conservative. And also, there are parishes, which have more of a progressive, if you will, or a social justice leaning, and they might have a rainbow ministry for L-G-B-T-Q Catholics, they're not afraid to go there with the issues of the day, like immigration and so many of the hot button issues that actually we're experiencing right now in spades, they're not trying to shy away from the world or create an alternate world, or create a world as though it should be according to them. But more so a world as it should be according to the life and teaching and example of Jesus Christ.And [in] those parishes, I feel good and at [00:06:00] home because there's a tension there, and it sounds odd in a way to say I feel good in a tension, but it kind of is, I think, where our faith lives. And that is in the tension of we have this 2000 plus year old religion, the Roman Catholic Church, and a lot has happened in 2000 years, and some of it looks familiar, some of it's slightly nuanced with different players and names and faces.But a lot has happened, and we find ourselves as Catholics just continuing to wrestle and wrestle with taking the foundational values that Jesus laid out, again in his life example ministry and teachings, and trying to be in and of this world and apply them and. In my personal [...
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    37 Min.