"This patient taught me a lot. The context was that I just finished my second training as a psychodynamic psychotherapist and I felt I needed to prove a lot, and I clearly arrived with the wrong agenda. It was that if I was good enough and smart enough, a clever enough just graduated psychodynamic psychotherapist, I would manage to get into why the patient is struggling so much with the realization of his mother's cancer. That is a resistance, he didn't want to touch the topic at all. I thought that if I uncover the underlying reason why the cancer of his mother was so extremely distressing, and be able to explore with him how he's processing this, I would be helping him. I was extremely wrong. The patient was really generous with me. What I meant is he was forgiving. He clearly was tolerating me trying to push for something he really had no appetite for."

"Psychoanalysis is not only about clever interpretations. Psychoanalysis can be about the tools to help us feel what we are experiencing. And in those radical settings, you become almost the object you are projected to be and you need a frame of mind to ground you that you are not that and can offer something different. So that is why I thought it was really useful."

Episode Description: We begin with a description of the distinction between supportive and exploratory psychotherapy. Rodrigo presents clinical examples of individuals who were in crises and their capacity to be aware of their inner experiences was not available to them, hence supporting their defenses was vital. In addition, "being with them" became a key aspect of the therapeutic benefit they gained. We consider patients who are phobic about intimacy and have backgrounds where trusting others proved to be actually dangerous. He also spoke of therapists who unknowingly privilege their own need to feel like an interpretive healer in the face of their patients' more immediate need to be listened to. Rodrigo alerts us to the risks of colluding with patients' binary view of the world and recommends helping them recognize that "the therapist may not always be on their side or share their perspective" - this is the creative challenge of supportive work. We close with his sharing with us his personal journey and his appreciation that psychoanalysis can be meaningful as well in settings 'off the couch'.

Our Guest: Rodrigo Sanchez Escandón Trained as a Clinical Psychologist in Mexico City and completed his Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy training at the Mexican Psychoanalytic Association before moving to London to undertake further psychoanalytic training at the British Psychoanalytic Association (BPA). He is currently the BPA's Director of Curriculum Subcommittee. He is also the Course Lead for Adult Psychotherapies at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, overseeing programmes in London and the North of England. He previously lectured in the Department of Psychosocial and Psychoanalytic Studies at Essex University, where he continues to supervise PhD students and pursue research. For seven years, Rodrigo worked extensively with individuals experiencing homelessness and complex needs, integrating psychoanalytic approaches into multidisciplinary care. He now maintains a private practice in Leeds, alongside his teaching and leadership roles.

Recommended Readings:

Winston, A., Rosenthal, R. N., & Roberts, L. W. (2020). Evolution of the concept of supportive psychotherapy. In Learning supportive psychotherapy: An illustrated guide (pp. xx–xx). American Psychiatric Association Publishing.

Winston, A., Rosenthal, R. N., & Roberts, L. W. (2020). General framework of supportive psychotherapy. In Learning supportive psychotherapy: An illustrated guide (pp. xx–xx). American Psychiatric Association Publishing.

Hellerstein, D. J., Rosenthal, R. N., Pinsker, H., & Klee, S. (1994). Supportive therapy as the treatment model of choice. American Journal of Psychotherapy, 48(1), 80–93.

Sanchez Escandon, R. (2025). Introduction to the fundamentals of supportive therapy. In Contemporary developments in supportive therapy: Principles and Practice. Palgrave.

Sanchez Escandon, R. (2025). Active and passive use of the transference. Contemporary developments in supportive therapy: Principles and practice. Palgrave.

"The similarity between Freud and Kohelet [Ecclesiastes] is that both of them believe that there's no overarching totalistic system that integrates all the disparate experiences that one has. You have that, Freud says, in psychotics, and you have that in philosophers, and you have that in devout people - they look for systematicity. They try to cram everything into a framework of meaning. Both Freud and Kohelet reject that. They don't have a worldview in that way. However, in order to flourish, you do need a meaning-giving, affect-integrating and action-guiding set of considerations. You can't just be out there like a windowless monad floating around. There are some core beliefs and values that anchor a person, that give them footing. So there's a difference between a totalizing worldview and a workable framework that's open to critique."

Episode Description: We begin with a brief reading from On Transience and Ecclesiastes and consider how they both belong to 'Wisdom Literature' while separated by over 2000 years. Paul points out that while Freud works from a linear sense of time, Ecclesiastes (Kohelet) is drawn to the cycles of nature and human experience. He provides clinical examples that he feels are enriched by considering the teachings of Ecclesiastes which are very similar to the psychoanalytic way of thinking - "one must learn to live with what cannot be altered," the importance of the "downsizing of infantile narcissism," and recognizing that "pleasure and joy are palpable, sensual and concrete experiences." We discuss the importance of an object-related life that includes forgiveness and gratitude as well as "embracing resignation without despair." We conclude with the deeply moving time poem "To every thing there is a season/ and a time to every purpose under heaven..."

Our Guest: Paul Marcus, PhD is a training and supervising analyst at the National Psychological Association for Psychoanalysis in New York and Co-chair of the discussion group Psychoanalysis and Spirituality in the American Psychoanalytic Association. He is the author/editor of 25 books including The Spiritual Resistance of Rabbi Leo Baeck: Psychoanalysis and Religion. He is the editor of Psychoanalytic Review.

Recommended Readings:

Seow, C.L. 1997, Ecclesiastes: A New Translation. New Haven: Yale University Press

Fox, M. V., 2004, Ecclesiastes, Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society

Heim, K.M., 2019, Ecclesiastes, Downers Grove: IVP Academic