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  • 17. Confidence, confidence, confidence! On leading musically inclusive activities, with Dr Graham Sattler CF

    17. Confidence, confidence, confidence! On leading musically inclusive activities, with Dr Graham Sattler CF
    Jun 30 2026
    For Graham Sattler, being a musical inclusion advocate means building a life's work around a single conviction: that music is the activity with the fewest impediments to participation. In this episode, Melissa talks with Graham about the journey that took him from the opera stage and the orchestral trombone section to the heart of community music practice, and the moment in Orange, New South Wales, that crystallised everything. Graham shares what he found when his Churchill Fellowship took him across eight countries investigating best-practice community music leadership training, and why the musicians he met were so strikingly clear about the why, how, and what of their work. He reflects on confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as essential leadership qualities; on generosity, compassion, and selflessness as the values that underpin effective practice; and on what happens to a community when leadership changes and those qualities disappear. The conversation also turns to orchestras — Graham is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra — and what it takes for professional performance organisations to engage authentically with community, rather than as a funding exercise. Honest, thoughtful, and full of hard-won insight, this is a conversation about what it really means to lead music that matters. Key Topics Discussed What "musical inclusion advocate" means and where that framing came fromMusic as the most accessible participatory activity — and how to respond when that idea is challengedThe move from Sydney to Orange, NSW, and the moment community music came into sharp focusThe training gap in community music leadership across Australia and the Asia-PacificWhat Graham observed in leadership training programs across the US, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Norway, Portugal, and ArmeniaConfidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as pillars of effective community music leadershipThe values common to the best community music leaders: generosity, compassion, and selflessnessWhat happens to a community when leadership changes — and why training mattersProfessional orchestras and community engagement: honest assessment of where the sector is and where it falls shortCommunity music as 60% of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's organisational output Notable Quotes "Music is the most accessible group activity that human beings can engage in — it has the fewest impediments to participation." "Whatever they bring into the room is enough. Human beings are profoundly and intrinsically musical, and music is, similarly, profoundly human." "I discovered what it was to be answerable to, responsible to, identifiable community — and that's when it really crystallised." "I hadn't teased courage out of confidence before — but they are quite different things." "When those qualities aren't there, people notice. People aren't stupid. They can spot a phony." About Graham Sattler Graham Sattler is an Australian musician, educator, and orchestra CEO whose career has taken him from the opera stage to the conductor's podium to the heart of community music practice. He has worked as a trombonist and singer with the Australian Opera, as a conductor of orchestras and choirs across Australia and internationally, and spent over a decade as director of regional conservatoriums in New South Wales — leading music programs with aged, disability, and at-risk youth communities. He holds a PhD in Music Education, a Master of Performance (Conducting), and a Graduate Certificate in the Psychology of Risk. In 2019, Graham was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to investigate best-practice community music leadership training programs across eight countries. He is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra in Aotearoa New Zealand, where community engagement makes up 60% of the organisation's output. Connect with Graham LinkedIn Christchurch Symphony Orchestra Episode Highlights 00:01:27 — What "musical inclusion advocate" means, and how Graham arrived at that description00:03:55 — Responding to the challenge: is music really the most accessible activity?00:05:31 — Why the word "made" is the alarm bell for everything community music stands against00:08:14 — The move to Orange, NSW, and the moment inclusion became central00:13:25 — Why the leadership training gap matters — and what's lost when leadership changes00:16:24 — What confidence actually looks like in community music leadership00:21:19 — Confidence versus courage: two different things00:23:09 — Whatever they bring into the room is enough00:30:18 — The common values of effective community music leaders: generosity, compassion, selflessness00:33:04 — Orchestras and community: an honest assessment00:40:08 — The three closing questions: human connection, one song to unite a room, and a magic wand
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    43 Min.
  • 16. Embrace the awkward: Community, belonging, and radical welcome, with Joel Carnegie

    16. Embrace the awkward: Community, belonging, and radical welcome, with Joel Carnegie
    May 31 2026
    Joel Carnegie—conductor, broadcaster, and storyteller—talks about Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra that is quietly doing some of the most important social work in the business. Joel shares how he came to Awkwardstra after a demanding period in his professional life, and why the experience fundamentally changed how he thinks about music and leadership. This episode is a masterclass in what inclusive, values-driven music-making can look like in practice. Joel also reflects on his background as a storyteller and how narrative — including the music itself — can convey the value of community music in ways statistics simply can't. Drawing on his training in acting methods and voice work, he offers a thoughtful account of what it means to lead from the podium with empathy, clarity, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty. This conversation is full of practical wisdom and genuine inspiration. Key Topics Discussed The origins of Awkwardstra Geelong and Joel's path to becoming its conductorWhat radical inclusivity looks like in a community orchestra and the practical structures that support itManaging a wide range of skill levels and experience: music selection, coaching programs, and section supportThe "Awky Pass" and how the collective supports individual members facing financial barriersThe tension between musical quality and inclusivity and why it can be a generative rather than a destructive tensionThe role of story in making the case for community music, including a commissioned piece built from players' own storiesHow acting training and voice work inform Joel's practice as a conductor and ensemble leaderEmpathy, clarity, and openness as core qualities in music leadershipWhat music leadership has to offer organisational leadership more broadlyAdvice for young musicians interested in community music Notable Quotes "Making music for the joy of it, for creating connections across the community, and for offering people an opportunity to extend themselves — that's really what we're doing here." "The podium never lies. There's no one else you can really be except yourself up there." "We start every rehearsal by recognising that we've all had whatever happened during the day, and we take a moment to arrive into the space — intentionally — and remember that we're in physical bodies playing instruments that are physical." "Music allows us to feel. And when we can feel, we can connect with other people. We're in the business of feeling-making and moment-making." "People getting together and playing music is eternal. And those who are providing the structure for that to happen are creating guardrails and forms of resilience and resistance." "Just because it's not happening in Sydney or Melbourne doesn't mean it is not of value." Resources Mentioned Awkwardstra Geelong — community orchestra based in Geelong, VICKym Dillon — composer, pianist, and arranger who created a piece for Awkwardstra based on players' stories; performing with the orchestra again at the Geelong Arts Centre, 17 October 2026Pako Festa (Pakington Street Festival) — Geelong's largest street festival; Awkwardstra performed as a flash mob opening actIngrid Martin — Joel's conducting coachABC Classic Evenings — national radio program hosted by Joel Carnegie About Guest Joel Carnegie is a conductor, performer, and storyteller whose work spans live music, broadcasting, and community engagement. Each weeknight he hosts the national Evenings program on ABC Classic, and his storytelling work has earned recognition at the New York Festivals International Radio Awards and The Whickers, a prestigious international award for audio storytelling. From 2015 to 2024, Joel was Founder and Head of Storytelling at The Space Company, where he led the creation of music-rich podcasts, screen productions, and live stage works — including the nationally touring double bill Stardust + The Mission, which involved over 200 local musicians across 45 cities. A graduate of the Australia Council's Future Leaders program, he holds degrees from the University of Melbourne, Swinburne, and Deakin, with performance training in Graz, Austria. Joel is now the Conductor of Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra built on a simple but radical idea: that making music together should be open to everyone. Connect with Guest https://www.joelcarnegie.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelcarnegie/ Episode Highlights [00:01:47] How Awkwardstra began — and why Joel joined [00:05:37] The philosophy behind the name and what inclusivity looks like in the rehearsal room [00:14:57] Removing barriers: the Awky Pass, coaching programs, and community support [00:18:09] Musical quality vs. inclusivity — a generative tension [00:22:19] The power of story in community music, and commissioning Kim Dillon [00:28:13] Why Joel pursued acting methods and voice training — and how they shape his leadership [00:32:24] The most important qualities in a music leader: ...
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    49 Min.
  • 15. The hidden work of singing group facilitation, with Dr Belinda Densley

    15. The hidden work of singing group facilitation, with Dr Belinda Densley
    Apr 30 2026
    Dr Belinda Densley has spent more than 30 years facilitating community singing groups in Geelong, Victoria, and over that time she came to understand that the work was never really about the voice. It was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind. That realisation led her through a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and ultimately to a recently completed PhD, in which she developed a grounded theory of group singing facilitation she calls Creating Song Magic. In this episode, Belinda unpacks that theory, exploring the four core dimensions of the facilitator's role: advocating for people's right to sing, curating repertoire that creates meaningful experiences, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression in the room, and contributing to the transformation of communities. She also speaks candidly about the "hidden work" that singing facilitators do — work that has remained largely invisible, under-resourced, and poorly defined, even within music and community health sectors. We talk about what it means to reframe the singing facilitator as a community health resource, the importance of boundary-setting and reflective practice, and why Belinda believes trauma-informed relational skills should be foundational to any future training for facilitators. She also shares a deeply moving story about a love-and-loss singing session that rippled far beyond the room. Key Topics Discussed The burning question behind Belinda's PhDWhy the singing facilitator role has remained hidden The four categories of Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communitiesThe difference between participatory, circle-based singing and performance-oriented models like pub choirThe facilitator as a community health resource and the consequences of that role remaining unrecognised and underfundedBoundary-setting in facilitation, and how clarity within the facilitator translates to clarity for participantsThe case for trauma-informed, relational training for singing facilitators Sharing research findings through a five-part podcast series as an accessible alternative to academic publishingThe systemic barriers community singing groups face in accessing physical spacesThe role of autonomous health-seeking behaviour in group singing participation Notable Quotes "The work was never really about the mechanics of the voice — it was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind." "You have the fundamental human right to sing. You can sing." "We're not asking, are we trying to get the notes to be accurate? We're trying to create the harmony that's beyond musical — a harmony of beingness, a harmony within community." "People fell in love with the singing group and sometimes misplace that love for the facilitator. Getting clear on what your role is does so much of the work. The confusion really stops existing if you're not confused yourself." "I don't advertise — people that come to me come via someone already in the group. There's already an expectation that there's going to be a wellbeing effect from coming." "This thing that just happened today has caused so much therapeutic growth that is beyond the capacity of me as one individual." "Singing with another allows so much possibility in — for love, actually, for love." "There's no reason everyone in Australia can't be in a singing group once a week." Resources Creating Song Magic — Belinda Densley's grounded theory of group singing facilitation (PhD research, Federation University Australia)Belinda's podcast documenting participant experiences of her singing groups Acabellas About Guest Dr Belinda Densley is a singing facilitator, counsellor, and researcher based in Geelong, Victoria, Australia. For more than 30 years, she has facilitated community singing groups grounded in the belief that singing is a fundamental human right and a powerful vehicle for wellbeing, connection, and community transformation. Belinda holds a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a PhD from Federation University Australia, where her research focused on the process of group singing facilitation itself. Her grounded theory, Creating Song Magic, is the first study of its kind to illuminate the complex, relational, and largely invisible work that skilled singing facilitators perform. She also teaches postgraduate counselling students and mentors emerging facilitators. Alongside her research, Belinda has disseminated her PhD findings through an accessible five-part podcast series, reflecting her commitment to making practitioner knowledge available beyond academic audiences. Connect with Belinda https://acabellas.com.au/contact/ Episode Highlights 02:00 — The burning question: what mechanisms beneath the wellbeing effects of group singing led Belinda to pursue a PhD? 03:00 — Why the singing facilitator role sits "in the middle of a lot of different areas" and has remained underexplored 05:30 — Singing as a "with" ...
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    40 Min.
  • 14. Music, Youth Justice, and the Power of Belonging, with Dr Alexis Kallio

    14. Music, Youth Justice, and the Power of Belonging, with Dr Alexis Kallio
    Mar 31 2026
    What happens when a researcher brings together music education and criminology to advocate for the rights of some of society's most marginalised young people? In this episode, I speak with Dr Alexis Kallio, an interdisciplinary researcher whose work sits at a unique and important intersection—one that is challenging how institutions think about music, punishment, and what young people truly need to thrive. Alexis shares how her background in both music education and criminology led her to focus on music programs in youth justice settings, and what she has learned from collaborating with Western Australian hip-hop artist Optimus (Scott Griffiths) on the Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre. She reflects on what it means to meet young people as musicians rather than as students, why ownership and trust are so transformative in carceral settings, and why trauma-informed practice is relevant for every musician working with young people, not just those in detention. Throughout, Alexis makes a compelling case that music is not a luxury or a reward—it is a fundamental right for every child. Key Topics Discussed How Alexis's degrees in both music education and criminology shaped her research focus on youth justice settingsThe Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre and what makes it effectiveWhy meeting young people as musicians—rather than as teacher and student—is central to building trustThe importance of agency, ownership, and strengths-based approaches in music programs for incarcerated youthTrauma-informed practice and why it matters across all music education contextsWhy there is no one-size-fits-all pedagogical approach: responding to the individual in the roomThe concept of "hungry listening" (Dylan Robinson) and what it means for musicians working in community settingsAlexis's national symposium on music, crime and social change and the community it has createdThe Policing Australian Popular Music project and its work with Queensland Police ServiceThe case for music and music education as a fundamental right for every child Notable Quotes "At the end of the day, these are children." "In a space where young people have ownership over literally nothing—they can't even choose the temperature of their shower—to have ownership over something with expensive music equipment, and have that as yours, can be a really powerful sense of pride." "There is no one right way, because there's no one child." "Music is all about connection. And connection is all about music." "I'd like music and music education to be a right for every child, regardless of their background or circumstance—something that is seen as essential to their lives now, but also their growth." "Young people's voices are sometimes articulated more clearly through their music than through any words they'll say to a social worker or a psychologist." Resources Mentioned Hungry Listening by Dylan Robinson About Guest Dr Alexis Kallio is an interdisciplinary researcher at Griffith University whose work explores how music education and creative practices create opportunities for equity and justice, particularly for young people experiencing vulnerability or marginalisation. Drawing on expertise in both music education and criminology, Alexis examines how educators and musicians navigate questions of power, values, and meaning in their work. Her research bridges grassroots community practice with institutional frameworks, asking critical questions about how creative spaces can be structured to support positive youth development. She has taught across studio, school, university, and community settings in both Australia and Finland. Connect with Alexis Episode Highlights 05:00 Why Alexis sees all young people—regardless of setting—as deserving the same child-centred approach to music13:30 What makes the Banksia Beats program so effective, and why musical expertise matters15:45 The profound impact of ownership and trust in a detention centre music studio22:00 Why music is uniquely positioned to develop both individual identity and social connection simultaneously26:00 Dylan Robinson's concept of "hungry listening" and what it means to truly listen to young people29:00 The national symposium on music, crime and social change—and finding your people33:30 Alexis's submission to the youth justice inquiry and her challenge to the idea of incarceration as a solution36:30 The Policing Australian Popular Music project and working with Queensland Police Service
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    42 Min.
  • 13. Coming to our senses: How creativity helps us trust our own experience, with Dr Carla van Laar

    13. Coming to our senses: How creativity helps us trust our own experience, with Dr Carla van Laar
    Feb 28 2026
    Coming to our senses: How creativity helps us trust our own experience, with Dr Carla van Laar Show Notes In this episode, I speak with Dr. Carla Van Laar, a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing, Carla is the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies. Carla shares her compelling vision for how creativity can act as a reality check in a world that constantly asks us to outsource our sense of what's real. From her early childhood discovery of perspective in art through to her current advocacy work at a national level, Carla's journey illuminates why creative engagement is essential—not peripheral—to mental health and social wellbeing. The conversation explores the disconnect between mounting evidence for creative arts therapies and their limited implementation in Australia's health system, the need for a rethink of biomedical models to better accommdate creative therapies, and what happens when we create accessible spaces where people can connect through the arts. Key Topics Discussed Creativity as a Reality Check How creativity restores trust in first-hand experiencing in a society that asks us to outsource our sense of realityThe parallel between gaslighting dynamics and systemic forces that undermine our perceptionHow creative practice brings us into the present moment and to our senses—sight, touch, hearing, taste, and scent Creative Flow States and Wellbeing Research on the benefits of engaging in creative practice for as little as 20 minutesHow flow states create a sense of timelessness, reduce stress, improve sleep, and help us meet life's challengesNavigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics, self-judgement, attachment to product over process Personal Journey to Creative Arts Therapy How learning about perspective as a young child changed Carla's worldviewUsing creative practice to navigate uncertainty and make sense of the world through her own lensesThe convergence of fine arts, community arts practice, and creative arts therapy Systemic Advocacy and Reform Strategic positioning of creative arts therapies within the broader psychotherapy and counselling frameworkThe 2020 push during COVID to ensure creative therapists were part of mental health system reformsInclusion in national standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce The Evidence Gap and Implementation Challenges Why the question "does it work?" is now outdated—World Health Organisation and global health bodies have established the benefitsCreative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness, underlying causes of depression and mental ill-healthThe challenge of measuring relational, context-responsive practices using biomedical modelsLooking at return on investment differently: reduced hospital admissions, reduced burden on mental health services, suicide prevention Rethinking Service Delivery Models The limitations of applying one-hour-a-week biomedical models to creative therapiesCarla's vision for community creative health hubs where people can spend time, connect, participate, and be audiencesThe story of the Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co: what happens when creative spaces become accessibleThe gap between GP mental health care plans and accessible support Shifting Worldviews Why awareness-raising alone isn't enough—people need embodied experience to understand the benefitsThe 85-year-old veteran who went from "what's this mumbo jumbo?" to "this creative stuff actually helps me" in 12 monthsDifferent forms of evidence: the persistence of creative and cultural practices over millennia as proof of efficacyThe importance of policy makers and health professionals having their own creative experiences Notable Quotes "Creativity itself can and does restore our trust in first-hand experiencing in a world that keeps asking us to outsource our sense of reality." "Our senses—whichever ones we love the most—can all be sources of wonderful information about the world around us. And they are the original source for us of our ways of knowing and navigating the world. Creativity in that way isn't seen as an escape from reality, it can actually be a reality check." "Engaging in a creative practice of any form really brings us into the here and now. We have to be present, because that's where it's happening, right here, right now." "Connection is the most important thing. We need connection, and in fact, us, like every other living thing, we gravitate towards connection. Everything is connected, everything wants to be connected. We're no different. We need connection to thrive." "Tell me, and I'll forget. Show me, and I might remember, but involve me and I'll understand. When people experience for themselves the benefit, ...
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    43 Min.
  • 12. The opera singer who chose community over Carnegie Hall: The singing for health revolution, led by Liz Lecoanet

    12. The opera singer who chose community over Carnegie Hall: The singing for health revolution, led by Liz Lecoanet
    Feb 1 2026
    This episode features Liz Lecoanet, an international vocal specialist who's pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare and workplace wellbeing. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health in Australia, Liz shares her passionate mission to make singing as prescribable as exercise, revealing how she co-founded "Singing for Health" with GP Dr Isabel Hansen, a singing group for medical professionals. Liz's journey from opera stages in London and New York to hospital wards reveals a profound shift: the most powerful music happens when we stop trying to "get it right" and start listening. This conversation explores the essential balance between doing and being, the difference between community music and performance, and why Liz is convinced that singing is an essential service. Liz's infectious energy and unwavering conviction that singing is a human right make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of arts, health, and social change. Topics Discussed The birth of Singing for Health: How a frustrated conversation about people being told they "can't sing" led to a partnership between music and medicinePrescribing singing like exercise: The campaign to have GPs prescribe singing as a health interventionCreating safe spaces for vulnerability: Why healthcare workers particularly need permission to "get it wrong"The yin-yang of modern life: How singing provides essential balance to our "tick-box" cultureOpera training meets community practice: Navigating the transition from perfectionism to presenceEmbodied leadership: How physical presence and authentic passion create permission for othersMedical conferences and boardrooms: Strategies for convincing sceptics through experienceThe social movement: Positioning arts and health as fundamental rather than supplementaryIndigenous wisdom: Reconnecting with singing as inherent human expression Notable Quotes "I just want to go into a court of law and prove what this does to somebody when you tell them that they can't sing... what it does to your immune system, what it does to your relationships, how that changes your workplace... if you tell someone they don't have a voice, what that does to their life, and how you are robbing them of being a human being." "Everybody's breathing in the room, so they qualify as a singer, because they're breathing." "You don't need to be a professional soccer player to take a walk around the block and get some exercise. That's what I'm talking about in terms of singing." "The world of light, the world of doing... we're very busy yang orientated, light people. But very seldom do we actually close our eyes and just listen." "When people discover [their voice], they go from being a waitress to a manager in their café, or they get out of a crappy relationship, they ask their boss for a raise." "These are health workers that were burnt out before COVID, and they came to choir every week online to be muted. If that doesn't tell anyone that's an essential service, what the hell does?" "We need that element. It's missing from some people's lives. And it's got to happen if humanity is going to rise up." "Let's not try and make this into anything, let's just trust our humanity, and trust the song, and trust that it will be something." About Liz Liz Lecoanet is an international vocal specialist and choir conductor who bridges the worlds of professional performance and community wellbeing. With training from London's opera houses and performance experience in New York, she brings a unique perspective to participatory music-making. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health, she co-founded the Singing for Health programme with Dr Isabel Hansen, pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare settings. Liz received the Hidden Hero of Sydney Award from the City of Sydney in 2014 for conducting Creativity Australia's With One Voice Choir, which grew to over 180 members and became the subject of the award-winning documentary "Sing Your Little Heart Out." She has worked internationally, including with Beth Israel Hospital in New York using sound for pain management, and continues to present at medical conferences on the health benefits of singing. Today, Liz conducts multiple community choirs across Sydney, brings singing into workplaces to nurture connection and creativity, and works tirelessly—often voluntarily—to establish singing as a prescribable health intervention in Australia. Her approach emphasises listening over performing, presence over perfection, and the fundamental human right to use one's voice. Connect with Liz https://lizlecoanet.com/ Episode Highlights [00:02:17] Liz's passionate declaration about "proving in court" what denying someone's voice does to their life sets the tone for the entire conversation [00:09:21] The art of holding space for healthcare workers who desperately need permission to make mistakes [00:12:01] How Liz had...
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    44 Min.
  • 11. Community music in the academy—an unholy alliance? with Dr Francis Yapp

    11. Community music in the academy—an unholy alliance? with Dr Francis Yapp
    Nov 30 2025

    In this episode, Melissa speaks with Dr Francis Yapp, Senior Lecturer and Academic Director of the School of Music at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand. They explore the world of community music and its place in tertiary education. Francis shares his journey from classical training to community music leadership, discusses the innovative community music pathway at Canterbury, and addresses the ongoing debate about institutionalising grassroots musical practices.

    Key Topics Discussed
    • Defining community music - Exploring what community music means and how it differs from traditional music education approaches
    • Francis's journey to community music - From classical cellist to community music leader, advocate, and educator
    • The University of Canterbury's community music pathway - Origins, curriculum, and graduate outcomes of this innovative programme
    • Teaching philosophy - How group singing and cello teaching experiences shape Francis's pedagogical approach
    • The institutionalisation debate - Addressing concerns about bringing grassroots community music practices into academic settings
    • Māori musical practices - Discussion of waiata, kapa haka, and other traditional forms as examples of community music
    Māori terms used in this episode:
    • Waiata - Māori songs that serve various cultural purposes and are central to Māori identity
    • Kapa haka - Traditional Māori performing arts including singing, dancing, and chanting
    • Marae - A communal and sacred meeting ground in Māori culture where formal greetings and discussions take place
    • Taonga puoro - Traditional Māori musical instruments, considered cultural treasures
    • Kura Kaupapa Māori - Māori-language immersion schools operating under Māori custom and using Māori as the medium of instruction
    • Te Reo Māori - The Māori language
    Connect with Guest
    • University of Canterbury School of Music
    • Connect with Francis on LinkedIn
    • Listen to Salve Regina
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    1 Std. und 3 Min.
  • 10. Creative compassionate disruption through music with Phoene Cave

    10. Creative compassionate disruption through music with Phoene Cave
    Oct 31 2025
    In this episode, Melissa speaks with Phoene Cave, a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor who has spent two decades building social connections through music in some of the most challenging settings imaginable. From working with female offenders in high-security prisons to pioneering Singing for Lung Health programs, Phoene brings a unique perspective on how music can create meaningful change. She's trained over 350 facilitators globally and is now bringing creative health toolkits to nursing students, helping healthcare workers discover the power of creativity for both self-care and patient care. Phoene's philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs everything she does, from her music therapy practice to her work with community musicians. In this conversation, she shares insights on establishing trust and safety, the importance of supervision and reflective practice, and why she believes compassion and empathy need to be balanced with healthy boundaries to prevent burnout. Key Topics Discussed Singing for Lung Health Training How Phoene became a world specialist through learning on the job at Royal Brompton Hospital (2007)The evolution from in-person to online training during the pandemicTraining over 350 facilitators globally, including respiratory nurses and physiotherapistsThe importance of embodied practice and understanding respiratory issues Music Therapy vs Community Music The subtle distinctions between working as a music therapist and a community musicianHow both can achieve similar outcomes, but with different levels of articulation and awarenessThe power of music to shift narratives and create alternative experiences Creative Health Training for Healthcare Workers Providing creative health toolkits to nursing students at Roehampton UniversityThe overwhelming soundscapes in hospitals and their impact on staff wellbeingTeaching self-care through breath, movement, creative writing, and musicHow creativity provides agency and encourages thinking outside the box Supervision and Reflective Practice Why supervision is vital for community musicians, especially those in challenging settingsThe difference between music therapy supervision and reflective practice for community musiciansCompassion fatigue and the importance of boundaries Values and Approach Safety, trust, love, and presence as starting points with any groupThe importance of physical space and "resonance" - being aware 360 degreesCreative compassionate disruption as a guiding philosophyWorking in your "back body" - listening openly rather than being overly focused Personal Journey Training as a jazz improviser at Goldsmiths and overcoming challenges as a female vocalistMultiple music therapy trainings creating an unusual and valuable perspectiveThe transition from performer to facilitator and finding fulfilment in giving others a voiceDiscovering neurodivergence later in life About Guest Phoene Cave is a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor in the creative health field. She has spent two decades working with diverse communities in nurseries, schools, further and higher education, concert halls, social housing, care homes, hospitals, and a detention centre and prison. Phoene is recognised as a world specialist in Singing for Lung Health, having trained over 350 facilitators globally since 2015. Her work bridges the worlds of music therapy, community music, and healthcare, bringing creative approaches to both patient care and healthcare worker wellbeing. Her philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs all her work, from facilitating sessions in challenging environments to training the next generation of creative health practitioners. She is currently working on recording an album revisiting songs from her earlier career as a jazz vocalist. Connect with Guest Website: www.phoenecave.co.ukThe Transit Collective: https://transitcollective.org/ Episode Highlights [00:02:00] - The journey to becoming a Singing for Lung Health specialist - from answering an advertisement to training 350 facilitators globally [00:06:15] - Learning on the job: the benefits and challenges of building the plane while flying it [00:10:43] - What's the difference between music therapy and community music? A nuanced exploration [00:15:18] - Establishing trust and safety: the starting point with any group, from prisoners to patients [00:25:08] - Creative Health Toolkits for nursing students: transforming healthcare through creativity [00:30:09] - The flow-on benefits when healthcare workers have creative tools for self-care [00:35:04] - What is supervision in music therapy and why it matters for community musicians [00:43:56] - Compassion fatigue: the danger of being a caring empath without boundaries [00:46:25] - Why Phoene doesn't miss performing on stage (but is recording an album) [00:49:50] - Advice to ...
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    51 Min.