A live recording from MIP Junior in Cannes, with Andy, Emily and Jo grabbing Jon Mason, founder of Jollywise and creator of Stan and Gran, for a conversation that cuts against the grain of most MIP conversations. Instead of talking about how to get a show made, Jon is asking whether the show is the right format at all — and whether the industry is measuring the wrong things entirely.

The provocation at the heart of the discussion is a LinkedIn article Jon wrote questioning whether dwell time and views are sufficient metrics for kids content, at a moment when a World Economic Forum white paper on AI and children is asking the same question from a policy direction. Jon’s argument is that the industry has allowed data that is easy to collect — clicks, completion rates, engagement — to become the only data that matters, when what actually counts is what a child does after the content ends. Whether they go outside, ask a question, make something, explore. That’s much harder to measure, but arguably much more important. Bluey, he notes, are starting to think about exactly this.

• The conversation ranges across screen-free AI products (Mallow, Freckle, Yoto), the gap between the ed-tech world and the kids IP world that MIP could usefully bridge, the risk of AI companions that are permanently available and relentlessly sycophantic, and Jon’s core creative mission with Stan and Gran: getting kids outside. His closing challenge to the room is a good one — does your IP have to be a TV show? And if the answer is yes, are you absolutely sure?

This pre-MIP Junior sponsored episode brings Nicholas Ziegler, Managing Director of EMEA, APAC and Global Distribution at Moonbug Entertainment, into conversation with Andy, Emily, and Jo. The timing is deliberate — Moonbug has a lot to talk about heading into Cannes.

Nicholas traces the logic of what he calls Moonbug's reverse distribution model: where traditional studios start with premium pay TV and work their way down to YouTube, Moonbug started on YouTube and has worked its way up — through premium streamers, linear channels in 100-plus markets, consumer products, gaming, live events, and now, with the Cocomelon movie landing in February, theatrical. Owning all of their IP outright is what makes the model work; it means no permissions to seek, no rights to negotiate, and the ability to move from idea to execution in months rather than years. The linear channel launch in the Philippines took five months from concept to air. Emmy's Wonder Wardrobe — a live action Little Angel spin-off built around a character the audience was already asking for — went from data insight to Disney and Netflix in similarly short order.

• The newest announcement is Big Feelings, a music company Moonbug has built to open up its distribution and monetisation infrastructure to third-party artists and creators — with Snoop Dogg and Doggyland among the first partners. It's a bet that what Moonbug has built for its own music-led IP can be valuable to others who have the talent but not the network. The episode closes on the Cocomelon movie, which Nicholas describes as the climax of everything the model has been building toward — and on which he is, emphatically, not scared.

A bonus mini episode from Jo, recorded at the Young Horizons Film Festival in Warsaw — a relatively small but well-curated industry event that she reports punching above its weight. Two conversations captured at cocktail hour, both worth hearing.

First, David Kleeman on why "a good story well told" is no longer enough as a creative ambition. His argument is that kids engage with stories through three fundamental need states — wanting to be involved, wanting to explore freely, and wanting to be part of a community — and that the industry keeps accidentally frustrating all three through IP protectionism, algorithmic curation, and age-gating from social spaces. His closing point is sharp: start with a core, let the audience tell you where they want to go next, and don't try to build everywhere at once.

Then Janine Weigold former Netflix executive now consulting across the industry, on the funding gap that nobody has solved: the space between an early idea and a full commission, where animation in particular keeps falling through the cracks. Her argument is that broadcasters, ad sales teams, and private companies with audience reach could function as incubators — offering channels, expertise, and promotional muscle to help creators find proof of concept before the big platforms come looking. The conversation ends on data sharing, where Janine is unambiguous: platforms hoarding engagement data isn't just bad for the industry, it's preventing the discovery of the next SpongeBob.