In Part 2 of this two-part conversation, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck continue their conversation with Matthew McCarthy, former CEO of Ben & Jerry's, moving from the false choice of purpose vs. profit into some of the thorniest territory in modern leadership: anti-woke backlash, the monetization of conflict, and the quiet collapse of trust underneath it all.

Matthew opens up about "authorizing yourself" instead of waiting for permission, then turns to what we call "wokery pokery" — the way both sides of the culture war often care more about conflict than the actual issue at stake. From there, the conversation moves through the fear of being publicly called out, why hyper-transparency has made holding statements obsolete, and why trust may be the single biggest driver of business performance.

Matthew closes with a candid look at the hardest part of leadership: not choosing between right and wrong, but choosing between two things that both hurt and why compassion for the people around you (including the ones treating you badly) might be the most underrated leadership skill there is.

• Why "authorizing yourself" is more important than waiting for permission from your boss or company
• How delegating responsibility upward quietly drains your own agency
• Why most "toxic" people are engaging in toxic behavior, not being toxic people
• The difference between the anti-woke movement's stated concerns and its actual function: monetizing conflict
• Why holding statements and PR positioning no longer work in an age of hyper-transparency
• Why "the coefficient of trust" may be the most important number a leader never measures
• The direct link between organizational trust and financial performance
• Why "check your values at the door" is a dangerous myth
• The hardest part of leadership: choosing between two painful options, not right vs. wrong

0:00 — Introduction: purpose, profit, politics

1:20 — Avoiding sticks vs. moving toward carrots

3:00 — "Authorize yourself"

5:29 —Wokery Pokery — has "woke" gone too far, or worked too well?

6:16 — Walking the talk vs. inviting criticism

9:39 — The Coefficient of Trust — "a moment of manufactured terror"

11:16 — Trust as fuel: why low trust correlates with poor results

13:53 — "Check your values at the door" is a dangerous distortion

15:00 — The case for "real talk" about the human cost of leadership decisions

15:30 — Closing: build trust, make trade-offs, keep moving

It Shouldn't Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers navigating the messy intersection of purpose and performance — exploring why doing the right thing in business can feel far harder than it should.

🤖 Meet Gaia, Grounded's sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia 🌍 Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/

#Sustainability #Leadership #BenAndJerrys #Trust #AntiWoke #Business #ItShouldntBeThisHard

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck are joined by Matthew McCarthy, former CEO of Ben & Jerry’s, to challenge one of the most deeply ingrained beliefs in business: that purpose and profit are competing priorities.

Drawing on decades of experience leading one of the world's most outspoken purpose-driven brands, Matthew McCarthy argues that many of the biggest barriers to growth, trust, and impact aren't coming from competitors, regulators, or changing consumer expectations.

They're coming from inside the organization.

From the false choice between doing well and doing good to the growing crisis of consumer trust, this conversation explores why businesses so often become the fox in their own henhouse, creating the very obstacles they're trying to overcome.

Along the way, Matthew unpacks why consumers shouldn't be blamed for problems businesses have the power to solve, why leaders spend too much time debating whether instead of focusing on how, and what it takes to build organizations capable of creating both impact and value.

• Why the "purpose vs. profit" debate may be setting businesses up to fail
• How organizations become their own biggest obstacle to growth and sustainability
• Why consumers shouldn't be blamed for problems businesses can solve
• What declining trust signals about the future of business
• How debating whether to act drains energy and momentum
• Why "scale" means something different to everyone in the room
• The relationship between purpose, profit, and long-term value creation
• Why leaders can't outsource sustainability to founders, legacy, or brand DNA

00:00 – Introduction: The fox in the henhouse

00:45 – Why the purpose vs. profit debate is broken

02:15 – How businesses become their own worst enemy

03:40 – The false choice between growth and impact

05:05 – "The fact that lots of products suck..."

06:20 – Consumer trust, accountability, and changing expectations

07:15 – Stop debating whether. Start focusing on how.

08:10 – Why everyone hears "scale" differently

09:05 – Purpose, profit, and long-term value

09:45 – Closing reflections

It Shouldn't Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers navigating the messy intersection of purpose and performance — exploring why doing the right thing in business can feel far harder than it should.

🤖 Meet Gaia, Grounded's sustainability AI:

https://grounded.world/gaia

🌍 Get Grounded:

https://grounded.world/

#Sustainability #Leadership #BenAndJerrys #Business #ItShouldntBeThisHard

In Part 2 of this conversation, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck continue their discussion with Jeffrey Hollender — Founder of Seventh Generation, professor at New York University Stern School of Business, social entrepreneur, and author of Built for a Better World to explore the deeper systems, incentives, and leadership challenges that make responsible business so difficult to sustain.

While Part 1 unpacked Jeffrey’s personal journey building (and eventually losing) Seventh Generation, Part 2 zooms out to examine the broader forces shaping business behavior today: political influence, broken incentives, governance structures, internal culture, and the uncomfortable reality that doing the right thing often still comes with risk.

Jeffrey reflects on the early struggles of Seventh Generation, why the company’s growth accelerated when sustainability became connected to personal health and wellness, and why movements like B Corp still haven’t reached the scale needed to transform business at large.

But perhaps most importantly, this conversation explores the human side of leadership:

Why humility matters more than ego.

Why radical transparency terrifies companies.

And why businesses can’t close the gap between intention and execution without fundamentally changing how they operate.

Built for a Better World explores Jeffrey Hollender’s journey building Seventh Generation and the lessons learned navigating the tension between purpose, profit, leadership, and systemic change. Grab your own copy here: https://jeffreyhollender.net/

Key Takeaways:

• Why business is both a driver of solutions and a major contributor to systemic problems
• The role storytelling and internal culture play in scaling impact
• How market incentives shape whether sustainable businesses succeed or fail
• Why Seventh Generation reframed sustainability around personal health and wellness
• Jeffrey Hollender’s perspective on the B Corp movement
• Why larger corporations still resist accountability and transparency frameworks
• The overlooked business case for sustainability, diversity, and stakeholder governance
• Why humility is essential for responsible leadership
• What “radical transparency” actually looks like inside organizations
• Why purpose-driven businesses struggle when systems still reward short-term profit

Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction: the deeper systems shaping business behavior

00:45 – Why business is both the solution and part of the problem

01:30 – The role storytelling plays in purpose-driven organizations

02:15 – Why values often collapse under external market pressures

02:50 – How Seventh Generation repositioned sustainability around health and wellness

04:15 – Jeffrey Hollender’s perspective on the B Corp movement

05:10 – Why businesses still struggle to understand the business case for sustainability

06:05 – Diversity, governance, and systems thinking in leadership

06:50 – Words of wisdom for leaders trying to do the right thing

07:15 – Why humility and radical transparency matter more than ever

07:55 – Closing reflections on rebuilding business systems differently

About the Show:

It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like -real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can - (and must) coexist.

Additional Resources:

🤖 Meet Gaia, Grounded’s sustainability AI:

https://grounded.world/gaia

🌍 Get Grounded:

https://grounded.world/

#Sustainability #Business #Leadership #ESG #Bcorp #SocialEntrepreneurship #ItShouldntBeThisHard