This episode examines religious innovation through three distinct lenses.

Philip Jones, a retired Presbyterian pastor, brings institutional honesty. He names the anxiety beneath the language of innovation: declining membership, aging volunteers, and a shrinking financial runway. From inside the church, he explains how innovation often functions as a survival strategy, and why small groups, digital formats, and community service have become central attempts to rebuild connection—sometimes with mixed results.

Mark Friedman, a Jewish author and thinker, offers a textual and historical counterweight. He argues that innovation untethered from tradition weakens religion rather than saving it. Drawing on the Torah and Talmud, he demonstrates that Judaism has always allowed for change, but only when it is justified through a deep engagement with sacred texts, rather than cultural convenience.

Van moderates the conversation from a design and systems perspective, pressing on assumptions both traditions share. He reframes innovation as a question of delivery, relevance, and meaning-making, asking whether institutions are redesigning faith itself or merely repackaging it to keep people engaged.

Together, the episode challenges the idea that growth is the right metric—and asks whether religious innovation can preserve depth without resorting to pandering.

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We envision a world where design and religion work together to spread love, empathy, and charity faster than divisiveness, selfishness, and hate. To achieve this, we aim to bring the stories of those driving this change—both big and small—into the spotlight, allowing ideas for positive transformation to spread quickly and reach those who need them most.

Nate is the Head Pastor at Red Clay Creek Presbyterian Church https://rccpc.org/

Van is a Service Designer and Illustrator, and his work can be found at https://www.vansheacreative.com/