This episode is about getting to the heart of what capitalism and socialism mean and how no true example of either actually exists.

In this episode of Get Me to the Gray, Paula Lehman-Ewing sits down with economist Doug Cardell for a candid, unscripted conversation that cuts through ideology and into reality. Together, they explore how capitalism and socialism are often treated as fixed, opposing systems—despite the fact that no true version of either exists in practice. What emerges is a conversation about power, implementation, and the gap between economic theory and lived experience.

Rather than debating labels, this episode examines how systems actually function, who benefits from the way they’re structured, and why so many political arguments get stuck before they ever reach substance. It’s a conversation about tension, assumptions, and what happens when ideas meet the real world.

Doug's book Why Socialism Struggles is now available for purchase, and you can learn more about him at DougCardell.com.

Welcome to Get Me to the Gray. This episode is the trailer.

Hosted by journalist and author Paula Lehman-Ewing, the show creates space for conversations many of us avoid—across deep disagreement, uncertainty, and difference. This isn’t debate or performance, but dialogue that stays in the room when things get hard.

Full episodes launch soon. Follow the show to be part of it from the beginning.