Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of a two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Cass Pennant - former West Ham United Inter City Firm member who later became an author and film producer. They discuss director Ian Stuttard (known as “Butch”) and his 1985 groundbreaking documentary 'Hooligan', which challenged the stereotype of hooligans. Cass explains how Stuttard earned access by spending months with the ICF without a camera, building trust, and later filming from inside the action. The episode also covers the Thatcher-era context, the film’s controversial release and its wider impact on how 'firms' were understood. We finish the episode with Cass reflecting on Stuttard’s wider documentary career, their later partnership in a production company, and Stuttard’s lasting legacy. Join us next week for the history of football hooliganism.

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00:38 Introducing Cass Pennant and the Documentary

03:21 How Ian Stuttard Got Access to the ICF

11:08 Trust Test: A Year With No Camera

15:28 1985 Context: Thatcher’s Britain, Youth Culture, and Misread ‘Casuals’

24:19 Inside the Footage: Street Fighting, Early Video Cameras, and Codes of Conduct

26:23 Butch’s War-Correspondent Mindset

33:22 Back in the Studio: How ‘Hooligan’ Got Its Unfiltered Authenticity

34:02 Pre-Broadcast Panic: Calls to Ban the Film & Fears of Copycats

40:18 From Gangs to ‘Firms’

45:33 Inside Whitehall: Giving Evidence to the Popplewell Inquiry

54:59 Why It Faded: Fans Wanting Out, Politics, Policing & the Premier League Era

58:42 Stuttard's Legacy: Funeral Reflections, Final Bucket List Match & Lasting Impact

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