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  • The Third Path of Relationships

    The Third Path of Relationships
    Sep 8 2026
    In episode 85, we discuss Emma’s recent piece, “The Third Path of Relationships,” which asks a question at the heart of the theory: is understanding required for love?Emma traces her own three phases of thinking about relationships—from the early days before finding positive disintegration, through her “Triangle of Loneliness” period of feeling alienated and misunderstood, to a third position that corrects some of the thinking underneath both. Chris connects the piece to work from ten years ago on understanding in relationships, and to a recent Substack essay on autopsychotherapy—including the recognition that even inner work done in solitude has always been relationally driven.The conversation covers the difference between being understood and being loved, and what becomes possible when we stop requiring the first as a condition of the second. Emma pushes back on the common critique that the theory is individualistic, arguing that the dynamisms train us to move between inner and outer work: we heal our wounds so that we can show up for other people from our values instead of our triggers. Chris shares a journal entry from more than twenty years ago that shows what that development looks like across time, and Emma reflects on caring for her parents through a season when the tables have turned.Also in this episode: overexcitability and the anticipation (and letdown) of big experiences, Chris’s upcoming trip to Australia for the Critical Autoethnography Conference in Brisbane, and how listeners can support the podcast and Chris’s independent scholarship.Links from this episode:* Emma’s piece, The Third Path of Relationships* Chris’s article, What Autopsychotherapy Has Looked Like for Me * Emma’s Triangle of Loneliness video on YouTube* Support Chris’s work and travel fundIf you appreciate our work, please subscribe, leave a rating or review on your podcast platform, and share the episode—every share helps someone find the theory. Connect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe
    Rozwiń Zwiń
    1 godz. i 5 min
  • Positive Maladjustment, Applied

    Positive Maladjustment, Applied
    Jun 23 2026

    In episode 84, Chris and Emma returned after a break, and this episode marks a change. We dropped into the conversation without a guest, an intro, or any of the usual formalities—just the two of us talking about positive maladjustment in the way we are living it right now.

    We talk about lived experience as the ground from which this theory makes sense, and why understanding it means having gone through something, not just having read about it. The conversation moves through Chris’s recent return to a decade of correspondence, the difference between learning a theory and recognizing yourself in it, and what it means to treat empathy and perspective-taking as skills built across a lifetime rather than fixed traits.

    We are also honest about why the format is changing. We are moving away from guests and toward conversations about our own experiences with the theory—the practices that have served us, the ones that have not, and the ways our understanding has continued to develop. This is a period of reconfiguring and realigning with who we really are. It is going to be messy for a while. We ask listeners to bear with us as we do this work out loud.

    Links from this episode

    Emma’s DC2022 session (YouTube)

    Origins paper Chris mentioned (PDF)

    What Autopsychotherapy Is

    Ep. 83: Voices at the Margins

    Adults with Overexcitabilities (Facebook group)

    PDA: Resistance and Resilience with Chris Wells and Marni Kammersell

    Connect with us

    * Positive Disintegration on Substack

    * Visit the Dabrowski Center website

    * Facebook

    * Instagram

    * The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel

    * Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook

    * The Tragic Gift blog by Emma

    * Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com

    * Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.

    * Find Positive Disintegration Merch

    If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe
    Rozwiń Zwiń
    54 min
  • Voices at the Margins

    Voices at the Margins
    Mar 31 2026
    Episode 83 includes something we’ve never done before on Positive Disintegration. It’s a conversation among seven neurodivergent podcasters—recorded as part of a peer-reviewed paper that has just been published in Neurodiversity journal. The paper, “Voices at the Margins: Podcasting as Neuroqueer Collaborative Autoethnography and Epistemic Healing,” positions podcasting as a research methodology within critical neurodiversity studies, and this conversation is the data.The seven of us—Caitlin Hughes, Chris Wells, Emma Nicholson, Bee Mayhew, Sheldon Gay, Marni Kammersell, and Teena Mogler—sat down together to explore what podcasting makes possible that other forms of research and advocacy cannot. What emerged was a conversation about voice, belonging, lived experience as expertise, and the kind of knowledge that forms between people when they’re allowed to think out loud together.Rather than following a rigid script, we were guided by five open-ended questions that Caitlin designed to hold space for relational dialogue and reflexive sense-making. We talked about the inaccessibility of traditional knowledge spaces, what it means to reclaim lived experience as valid and generative knowledge, and the truths that live in contradiction, tangents, and half-finished thoughts. We also explored how this kind of podcasting ripples outward into neurodivergent community and belonging.The paper identifies nine resonances that emerged from the recording, including voice as epistemic repair, messiness as method, lived experience as expertise, multiplicity and difference as community, and humor and play as co-regulation. If you’ve ever felt like this podcast gave you permission to be unfinished, or helped you see yourself outside of yourself—that’s the ripple we’re talking about.Read the full paper (open access): https://doi.org/10.1177/27546330261437265Published in: Neurodiversity, Volume 4, Special Issue: Towards a Critical Turn in Neurodiversity Studies: Bridging the Arts, Humanities and the Social Sciences*A PDF of the transcript is available here The podcasters in this episode:* Caitlin Hughes (she/they) is a queer, nonbinary, multi-exceptional Australian social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate. Late-identified as Autistic, ADHD, Gifted, and PDA, Caitlin co-hosts the Divergent Dialogues podcast and brings a lived experience-led perspective to their work. They are committed to fostering epistemic healing through relational ethics, narrative reclamation, and accessible, lived experience–driven knowledge creation. * Chris Wells (they/them) is a multi-exceptional, nonbinary, and neurodivergent writer, podcaster, and developmental theorist specializing in Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration. They co-host the Positive Disintegration, cosmic cheer squad, and PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcasts, and are the founding president of the Dąbrowski Center and co-creator of the Positive Disintegration Network. Chris brings lived experience and a deep commitment to reframing neurodivergence through a developmental and relational lens.* Emma Nicholson (she/her) is a neurodivergent Australian Senior Business Analyst, creative and advocate, identifying as gifted, Dyscalculic, with all five overexcitabilities (psychomotor, sensual, intellectual, imaginational, and emotional), as well as bisexual and Heathen. She co-hosts the Positive Disintegration Podcast and serves as Vice President of the Dąbrowski Center. She is driven by an unkillable passion to demystify positive disintegration and share hard-won truths to help others feel seen and supported.* Bee Mayhew (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent (late-identified AuDHD, former gifted kid) writer, narrative collaborator, and communication coordinator for PDN Media. She co-hosts cosmic cheer squad podcast and has a background as a hospitality specialist and business owner. Bee’s work centers on collective narrative-building and neurodivergent storytelling through activist, community-rooted practice.* Sheldon Gay (he/him) is a Black Gifted speaker and podcast host of I Must Be BUG'N (Black Underrepresented/Unidentified Gifted and otherwise Neurodivergent). Sheldon is guided by the belief that learning to deeply and wholly Love oneSelf, cape and kryptonite, is the path to finding, creating, and maintaining Love everywhere we go.* Marni Kammersell (she/her) is an American late-identified neurodivergent (Autistic, ADHD, PDA, gifted) parent of neurodivergent children. She is an educator, researcher, writer, and consultant, and co-hosts the PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcast. Marni is dedicated to honoring neurodivergent experience through relational, self-directed, and nervous-system-informed knowledge practices.* Teena Mogler (she/her) is an Australian AuDHD social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate, as well as co-host of the Divergent Dialogues podcast. As a mother to neurodivergent children, Teena is passionate about ...
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    1 godz. i 46 min
  • Flourishing with AuDHD and PDA

    Flourishing with AuDHD and PDA
    Jan 13 2026

    In episode 82, Chris and Emma talk with Mattia Maurée about the intersection of ADHD, autism, and PDA—the Pervasive Drive for Autonomy. Mattia is an AuDHD coach and host of the ADHD Flourishing podcast. We discuss what it actually means to flourish rather than just cope or survive, why the pathology paradigm failed so many of us, and how positive disintegration offers a different lens for understanding intense neurodivergent experiences.

    Mattia shares their journey from misdiagnosis to self-understanding, the physical reality of nervous system shutdown, and why “do less” might be the most radical advice for neurodivergent people. We also get into the work question—why so many of us can’t stay in traditional jobs, the integrity trigger, and what it means to build a life around your actual needs rather than neurotypical expectations.

    Links from this episode

    AuDHD Flourishing Podcast

    AuDHD Flourishing Episode 88 with Chris Wells

    Do Less

    Also mentioned:

    * PDA: Resistance and Resilience Episode 7, Creative Resistance, with Marni Kammersell, Chris Wells, and guest Mattia Maurée

    * Caitlin Hughes from the Divergent Dialogues Podcast

    Connect with us

    * Positive Disintegration on Substack

    * Visit the Dabrowski Center website

    * Facebook

    * Instagram

    * The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel

    * Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook

    * The Tragic Gift blog by Emma

    * Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com

    * Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.

    * Find Positive Disintegration Merch

    If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe
    Rozwiń Zwiń
    1 godz. i 10 min
  • Reflections at Year Four

    Reflections at Year Four
    Dec 9 2025

    In episode 81, Chris and Emma mark four years of the podcast with a candid look at what’s changed—in themselves, their work, and their relationship to the theory.

    Both faced challenges this year, and both noticed something striking: they handled it differently than they would have before. The theory has become a real-time companion rather than a post-mortem tool—dynamisms catching in the moment instead of being identified after the fact.

    They discuss:

    * The shift from analyzing crises afterward to navigating them as they unfold

    * How relational resilience and genuine listening matter (with gratitude to bee mayhew )

    * What they’d do differently—never saying levels, prioritizing lived experience over expertise, better audio equipment

    * Plans for 2026: more episodes featuring just the two of them, deeper dives into lived experience

    * An announcement: they’re stepping away from the Dabrowski Congress to take a new direction

    The episode ends where the theory always points: shedding what’s less like us and moving toward greater autonomy.

    Resources from this episode

    * Dabrowski 101 (YouTube)

    * Ep. 56: Autoethnography for Personal Growth

    * Ep. 72, Healing through Writing with Dr. Lil Jedynak (The Gifted Experience)

    * cosmic cheer squad podcast

    * PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcast

    Connect with us

    * Positive Disintegration on Substack

    * Visit the Dabrowski Center website

    * Facebook

    * Instagram

    * The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel

    * Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook

    * The Tragic Gift blog by Emma

    * Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com

    * Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.

    * Find Positive Disintegration Merch

    If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe
    Rozwiń Zwiń
    59 min
  • Sexuality and Relationships

    Sexuality and Relationships
    Oct 15 2025

    In episode 80, Chris and Emma talked with Heather Anne Keyes, a neuroqueer Gestalt psychotherapist and educator based in Durango, Mexico. Together, we explore the intersections between sexuality, neurodivergence, and development through the lens of Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration.

    This conversation invites listeners to think about how we relate to ourselves and others when we step outside of convention. Heather’s insights bridge psychotherapy and lived experience, showing how awareness, compassion, and honesty can transform the way we love, communicate, and grow.

    Topics include:

    * Rethinking monogamy, non-monogamy, and ethical relationships

    * The overlap between giftedness, neurodivergence, and relational complexity

    * Gestalt therapy as a practice of awareness, authenticity, and co-creation

    * I-Thou relationships and the ethics of seeing others as full humans

    * The role of language in communication and self-understanding

    * How Buddhist psychology and radical acceptance inform Heather’s work

    Heather also shares moving reflections on loss, love, and the lifelong process of learning to “accept pain without turning it into unnecessary suffering.”

    Resources from this episode

    Heather’s website

    Humans of Gestalt (website)

    Humans of Gestalt (YouTube)

    Connect with us

    * Positive Disintegration on Substack

    * Visit the Dabrowski Center website

    * Facebook

    * Instagram

    * The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel

    * Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook

    * The Tragic Gift blog by Emma

    * Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com

    * Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.

    * Find Positive Disintegration Merch

    If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!



    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe
    Rozwiń Zwiń
    48 min
  • Crisis, Connection, and Fractals of Transformation

    Crisis, Connection, and Fractals of Transformation
    Aug 20 2025
    In episode 79, Chris and Emma explore the revolutionary idea that positive disintegration extends far beyond individual psychology with guest Richard Edelman, founder of Living Arts Wisdom and a cultural evolution strategist who synthesizes neuroscience, evolutionary philosophy, and trauma-informed practices. Drawing from interpersonal neurobiology, evolutionary theory, and climate psychology, Richard demonstrates how Dabrowski's developmental framework operates as a fractal pattern—appearing at the individual level, within relationships, across cultural systems, and throughout our species' evolution. This conversation reveals how our current global crises, from climate change to political upheaval, can be understood as manifestations of species-wide disintegration, and how individuals can become conscious participants in determining whether this leads to collapse or transformation.Key Topics Explored:* Interpersonal Neurobiology & Integration: Richard explains Dan Siegel's framework connecting mind, brain, and relationships, and how understanding integration helps us better comprehend what disintegrates in positive disintegration.* The Deep Neuroculture: A fascinating concept describing our collective nervous system as a species: the "mycelial network" beneath the surface of individual consciousness that shapes our biological and cultural niche.* Species-Wide Disintegration: How humanity is currently experiencing a collective positive disintegration driven by climate crisis, requiring us to transform our relationship with our environment.* Toxic Enculturation & Cycle Breaking: The process of liberating ourselves from harmful cultural patterns passed down through generations, with special attention to parents who refuse to perpetuate trauma.* Third Factor as Evolutionary Avatar: Reframing third factor individuals as harbingers of consciousness and relational evolution, essential for species survival.* Courage and Authenticity: The vital role of bravery in expressing our authentic selves and challenging the status quo, even in seemingly small interpersonal moments.Connect with Richard Edelman:* Richard’s website: livingartswisdom.com* Email: richard@livingartswisdom.comResources Mentioned:* Dan Siegel's work on interpersonal neurobiology* Iain McGilchrist's book "The Master and His Emissary"* Internal Family Systems (IFS)* Climate Psychology Alliance* Enactivism and Francisco Varela* Britt Wray’s Unthinkable (the book: Generation Dread)* The Third Factor (Dabrowski Center website)This episode offers a powerful reframe of the theory of positive disintegration, showing how individual transformation is intimately connected to the larger evolutionary challenges facing humanity. Richard's synthesis of multiple frameworks provides both theoretical depth and practical pathways for those seeking to navigate—and actively participate in shaping—our current polycrisis toward positive transformation.Connect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe
    Rozwiń Zwiń
    55 min
  • Polyvagal Pathways to Connection: Part 2

    Polyvagal Pathways to Connection: Part 2
    Jul 17 2025
    In episode 78, we continued our rich and engaging conversation with Autum Romano, an educator, bodyworker, and author from Colorado Springs, CO. This is the second in a two-part conversation exploring polyvagal theory and its relevance to personality development, healing, and human connection.We deepen our exploration of polyvagal theory and its connections with developmental experience, neurodivergence, and positive disintegration.Together, we unpack:* How neuroception and energetic sensitivity shape relational dynamics* The intersection of PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance), trauma, and cues of safety* How overexcitabilities can become dynamisms that help us grow in relationship* The role of relationships in co-regulation, especially for intense and neurodivergent individuals* Why true connection is essential to healing and development—and how hard it is to cultivate in unsafe environmentsChris reflects on their own experience as a gifted PDAer, highlighting how sensitivity to energy and autonomy needs has shaped their emotional regulation and social interactions. Autum and Emma both offer powerful insights about learning to tune into not just how others affect us, but how we impact them, too.This episode is rich with hard-earned wisdom about nervous system safety, embodied growth, and the power of safe, attuned relationships. If you’ve ever felt “too much,” struggled with co-regulation, or wondered how to find the green zone in your life—this one’s for you.Links from this episodeAutum’s websiteBody Wisdom and the Polyvagal Theory (Autum’s book)PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcast with Marni Kammersell and Chris WellsEpisode 56: Autoethnography for Personal GrowthLiving with IntensityPDA North AmericaIntense World TheoryDr. Stephen Porges, Safe and Sound ProtocolConnect with us* Positive Disintegration on Substack* Visit the Dabrowski Center website* Facebook* Instagram* The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel* Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook* The Tragic Gift blog by Emma* Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com* Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.* Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe
    Rozwiń Zwiń
    57 min